You talked me into it...

I think you will be rather proud of me. I downloaded the book onto my ipod (I am so hopeless when it comes to electronic devices). It makes the LONG drive to Wyoming not so worthless. Every time I thought of six hours in the car that could be used for reading, I cringed. So, my first experience with listening to a book went fairly well!

Since I have not seen or read Great Expectations I can only take your word for the comparison. She is very much like all the powerful women you ever read about, money is her tool for control. There is a part of me that actually believes she wants the best for Kate though. Unlike Kate's family (they seem to be in it only for themselves) Aunt Maud has good intentions.

I too am interested in the parts that Milly and Mrs. Stringham play. It sounds as if they both have lead very sad lives. Is Milly sick, or heartbroken?

In a fictional story, Kate and Densher should marry for love and assume the rest will follow. In real life- it would be hard for them to survive on love alone. I'm glad it's fiction. :)

I will read as much as I can but finals are coming up very soon. In about three weeks, there will plenty of time for reading.

Reading again

Lindsey, I have started listening to the story again, sorry I got sidetracked and busy with other things.

Mrs. Lowder somewhat reminds me of the Miss Havashim from Great Expectations. Money is how she controls those around her, they all see that they can benefit in some way if Kate stays in tight with her.

I have been introduced to Milly and Mrs. Stringham but don't yet know how they fit into the story. Is Mrs. Stringham to Milly as Mrs. Lowder is to Kate? Do their lives parallel one another?

I am not sure that Densher won't be easily swayed by what Mrs. Lowder can do for him and his career. She seems to hold everyone's future in her hands and is well aware of it and seems manipulative enough to play them all as pawns in her schemes.

Would it be best for Kate and Densher to marry for love and to be together no matter how they struggle rather than to hope for their fortunes to come from someone who is so controlling and maybe evil?

I really like the way that this story is written, I believe that the author is clever in his writing style.

Are you ready to continue or should we hold back until the quarter is over?

First Thoughts...

I don't want you to think I've given up, because I haven't. I'm just trying to find that balance in my life at this moment, you know? Anyway- here are some things I wanted to share since I've started reading this book...

I feel bad for Kate? Not really sure if she is supposed to be the villain or heroin, but I definitely find myself feeling sympathy for her. She certainly is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Family should be the saving grace in your life- your safe zone. Kate unfortunately has no family member that can help her in the way she needs help. Women's roles have changed extremely since the time this book was written, thank goodness. I can't imagine not being able to be with the person I love just because he has no money. Unfortunately- money does shape the future for Kate, because so many people are relying on her to make the "best" choice. Sad. I must say I'm glad I don't have a sister like Kate's.

96. Wings of the Dove

Henry James' The Wings of the Dove

Response

Lindsey, I do hope that my dissatisfaction with the book did not influence you since you were looking forward to reading it. I very much like your interpretation of the "brother", that feels right to me.



Did you notice on p. 68 it makes mention of Kafka? I can only assume that it Franz Kafka. So glad we read The Trial first because otherwise I would not have caught it.



Over the weekend we happened to have two moths come into the house and just as described in the book, they both stayed in one place on the wall for days. I had never noticed this phenomenon prior to reading it in the book, I too will never look at moths in quite the same way again. When on my front porch, when the porch light is on, I will check out all of the different varieties and have been know to call my family out to see them too.



The life that Austerlitz lead seemed extraordinary although it is sad that he always had the feeling that something was not quite right. Such heartache and mental anguish tortured this poor man. Facing your past is something that can be troublesome and difficult, it seems that his life and well being could have moved in a different direction had he been able to seek out this information earlier about who he really was.



Do you think he used the retelling of the story through the narrarator for ease of writing? Isn't it similar to Frankenstein that way?



I'm curious to know if the author had a stack of miscellaneous photos lying around and decided to tell a story based on them or if he wrote the story and then sought out the photos. Without the photos, I don't believe the story would have veered off course as much.



I'm looking forward to our next book, I am going to download it because my library only has the books on tape, not cd. If this is too much for you to deal with right now in your life, let me know. It is truly no pressure so I hope you don't feel any.

Keeps on Going

I really am not sure if it is because you had a hard time with this book and it influenced me or if I was just let down immensely. I wanted it to be good, something worth getting excited about- difficult is more like it. At times I forgot what the story revolved around (the Holocaust) due to the way the author wrote about it. Too many tangents and none-relevant details. Frankly, I was as lost as you were and very uninterested.

I wasn't sure if you wanted me to say if I think he had a brother or not- honestly I think he was referencing the hole left in his soul after his real parents were gone. A void maybe that he was trying to fill? Sad. That is just my interpretation of course.

One of the things I remember vividly was his description of time. I thought that was so interesting. I'm glad that you made mention of it too. I know that there are too many instances where I catch myself feeling governed by time instead of me choosing to rule time. What a universal thing time is.

I just wanted to point out another scene I remember: when Austerlitz hears for the first time the fate of his mother. What a horrible thing to have to imagine your mother helpless and alone. Then you think about her not worrying about herself but what is going to happen to her child and if he is okay. As a Mother, it hits a tender spot.

I finished! some thoughts, more to come...

This book was difficult for me to get involved in for several reasons. The story was only sprinkled throughout the book, you were only allowed to get it in bits and pieces while listening to the details of the architecutural surroundings. Although the descriptions are vivid, I would have preferred more of a story.

Towards the beginning of the book, p. 54, he tells about being able to see dead people and that they walked around in grey cloaks. "nothing but a piece of silk like that separates us from the next world." He stated that he felt like he had an invisible twin brother walking beside him, the reverse of a shadow. At the end of the book he mentions people in grey and again mentions the idea of a brother with him on the train. Did he have a brother too? Or is it that he is just remembering himself?

The narrarator eluded to his own life here and there, we never got to learn more about it either. He had mentioned eye problems and I don't recall much else about himself.

I liked the ideas that Austerlitz stated about time, (pages 100-101), That it's possible to be outside time. How he had not owned a clock of any kind seemed improbable if he was a student or took public transportation. We definitely plan our lives around the clock, what time does class start?, when does the plane leave? concert start? If you are a part of society you are bound to the almighty clock.

The Moth

I wanted to make mention of the part I just read because I thought it was very interesting and I found myself becoming engrossed. Austerlitz describes the conversation he has with Uncle Alphonso about moths. Truly, I will no longer look at moths the same way. As a person who believes that your spirit moves on to other life forms after death I can appreciate his sadness for the death of the moth in his home. I really liked this story within a story.

Beginning...

I never noticed how much I rely on the existence of chapters. Then I started reading Austerlitz- at page 30 I was frantically flipping through the pages trying to find a break, a place to stop. You are right about the endless sentences (if sentence is the correct term). Also, I'm glad that you found the beginning description of architecture hard to get through. I thought perhaps I had missed an important piece of information, but I'm glad I stuck with it because the developing story is well worth it.

I'm not really sure why this idea came to mind but when he thinks of Austerlitz over the years it reminds me of how you think of yourself at different times in your life. It was as if Austerlitz is an extension of himself (the narrator). Finally Austerlitz begins his tale...

The most interesting and compelling detail of his identity being questioned is when he describes looking for people with his same last name. It really brings to life what it must be like to realize your reality has been a lie. How bizarre that he makes a strong friendship with one of his professors based mainly on his last name and its connection to one of the greatest battles in history. Hilary gives Austerlitz a decent male figure to look up to- a replacement for his "barely there" foster father. What did you think of the way he describes his foster parents?

I did not know this was the newest book on the list. I did notice that it was "recently" written, however I had not considered that it could possibly be the newest book.

At the beginning...

Austerlitz. Yes Lindsey, I can see what you mean that this book is hard to get into. I did start reading it over the weekend. OK, what is with the endless sentence on pg. 9? I bet he did not use a program like Word that has a grammatical sentence checker because he would have gotten a message like "wordiness, consider revising". Also, I understand what you meant about all of the information at the beginning of the story regarding the details of the architecture, etc.



I worked on my stained glass project over the weekend and listened to the recorded version of the story and that was much easier to digest. Except the mention of all of the foreign places and names, I won't ever be able to recall them.



Austerlitz and the main character have met back up after 20 years had elapsed since they last saw one another. I can see the story being able to move forward from here with Austerlitz retelling the story of his mysterious childhood, who is he really? It was tragic that his foster parents both passed away before they could tell him about his past. How horrible to find out that your name is not really yours and that you are really someone else. It reminds me of the Boston Legal where Denny Crane (William Shatner) tells Alan Shore (James Spader) that his son, Donny Crane (Freddy Prinze Jr.) is not really his. It's clear that Donny is devastated by hearing this news. Your version of reality is totally turned upside down upon hearing news like this and you have to figure out who you really are.



It's uncanny how the narrator and Austerlitz meet up in the strangest of circumstances and continue their conversations where they had left off from their last meeting. I am not familiar with geography and need to brush up so I can understand the distances between the countries that are referred to in the story.



I did not realize that this was a newer story, when I heard that they meet again in 1996, I had to go and see when the story was published. Do you know, is it the newest book on our list?

97. Austerlitz

W.G. Sebald's Austerlitz

Final Thoughts

Ever since our conversation I think that the analogy of K. being stuck in a childish state of mind makes the most sense to me. He is easily persuaded by people to do things he shouldn't, such as finding himself in conflicts with his superiors. I think you are right about him lying a lot- especially to authority figures.

I wonder what the painter represents. Possibly the three different outcomes for the trial are three different ways of living your life. Actual acquittal is the best way and the only way to be done completely with the trial (this is my way of over-analyzing).

All of your observations are excellent and spot on. I also thought that K=Kafka, interesting. Does he feel as if he were on trial himself? In what way are we supposed to interpret this?

The V. President is a pivotal character, does he represent Josef's guardian- like a parent? He is in constant conflict with him and the don't see eye-to-eye on anything. As a reader I felt sympathy for the V.P. because I thought he was just trying to help Josef. However, Josef was always so suspicious of him.

I was so shocked by the end of this novel, not expecting what happened at all. Why does he mutter, "Like a dog"? What does that mean? Was he treated like a dog, or was his death like a dog's- I'm not sure. The entire book seemed symbolic- why did he buy 4 paintings that were exactly alike? Who was the person stretching out their arms in the building right before he died? Most likely it was a woman.

I have nothing else to say about The Trial. I am more interested in what your thoughts are.

Final thoughts

At K's initial inquiry he is asked if he is a house painter, now why would they ask him this if they knew who he was? It should be clear that he is a bank officer, not a house painter. Does the painter represent creativity? Is the reason that he sells K the 4 paintings that look alike show that K's life is like the scenery? It doesn't really change from day to day, month to month, season to season. Titorelli is in the story to speak of the judges and their arrogance and to show that there are courts everywhere and nothing is free from their presence.

The priest told K that he asks too much outside help, particularly from women. Once again, you do not know who is giving the information, who is friend and who is foe? If the surveillance during that time was so deep and infiltrated into all parts of K's life imagine what it would be like now in the day and age of electronic media and all of the footprints we leave behind.

The parable that the Priest tells K about the country man, the law and the gatekeeper is interesting but seems misplaced in the story. I am not sure how exactly this related to the story except to show that there is no entry to the law but who was the gatekeeper in regards to K's case? At the end of discussing the story he comments that "You don't have to consider everything true, you just have to consider it necessary." and K. replies "Lies are made into a universal system." Is this how we must consider our existence?

Again, K. is concerned that he doesn't know how to get out of the Cathedral and asks for assistance just like when he was at the law offices. I think these circumstances are a reflection of his trial, he is tangled up in this web so to speak and needs help getting out. He asks for help though those he ask don't show him the way but tell him where to go. He was told more than once that he needs to not ask for so much outside help with his trial and he keeps trying to find help from outsiders.

When K is taken by the executioners to his death and mutters "like a dog" I believe that he is succumbing to the powers/influences and has now become like a dog. Although I personally think of good things with dogs (man's best friend, loyalty, comfort, etc.), that is not what is meant by this. It's more like a mongrel than a pet. Something lowly and despised. The chapter in which Block, the merchant, is introduced when he's with the lawyer and crawling on the ground, it is noted that K. no longer considered Block a man, but an animal, the lawyer's dog. In the chapter where K. was going to take the Italian to the cathedral, Leni had called to speak to K., she told him that he was being "hounded". I could be reading more than I should into this but it seemed like another dog reference.

K was executed on his 31st b-day, he did not seem surprised by the men who showed up at his house, he thinks "I'm grateful that they've sent these half mute insensitive men to accompany me on this journey and that it's been left to me to say myself what needs to be said." I thought this meant that he ultimately is the one who has the last word in his case regarding his own guilt or innocence.

At the end, I thought that the person who was in the building would have been the final judge who condemned him to die. But who that was I cannot say clearly. Had it been a mirror or a pool of water then I would say K. of course however, it's not clear. I have considered it being the Vice President since it seemed to me that he would have benefited the most by not having K. around.

I did not understand the Fraulein Burstner character? Was she affiliated with the courts? Perhaps her character was going to be developed further upon completion of the story. Kafka must not have liked women because no of them were shown to have positive attributes in the book.

There were several references to lips in the book too. These were the ones that stuck in my mind.

1) Block tells of the superstition that many people can predict the outcome from the face of the defendant, particularly the lines of the lips. The people at the court predicted that K was to be convicted soon according to his lips.
2) K. could not see the Italian's lips and therefore stopped trying to listen to him since he was speaking to quickly and in a different dialect.
3) In the fragment chapter about Fraulein Burstner, Fraulein Montag had looked at K's lips and he got upset because in K's mind it was as if she had already assumed control over what he had to say.
4)The first encounter with Fraulein Burstner where he kissed her violently on her neck, right on her throat before he rested his lips there.

When K is taken by the executioners to his death and mutters "like a dog" I believe that he is succumbing to the powers/influences and has now become like a dog. Although I personally think of good things with dogs (man's best friend, loyalty, comfort, etc.), that is not what is meant by this. It's more like a mongrel than a pet. Something lowly and despised. The chapter in which Block, the merchant, is introduced when he's with the lawyer and crawling on the ground, it is noted that K. no longer considered Block a man, but an animal, the lawyer's dog. In the chapter where K. was going to take the Italian to the cathedral, Leni had called to speak to K., she told him that he was being "hounded". I could be reading more than I should into this but it seemed like another dog reference.

All in all I will have to say the book left me questioning and searching as if I missed something in the story. After reading what critics and others have thought about the story it has shown me that there are many differing opinions about the meaning of the story. Interesting, frustrating, confusing, done.

Additional observations/questions

I am trying to piece the story together. Who knows which are really the clues to the outcome?

One conflict - K. tells the washerwoman that he won't be induced to bribery yet he tries to bribe the guard to let Franz and Willem off during the flogging.

K. tends to tell lies quite often in the story to cover up his ignorance or to hide his intent. He lied when trying to find the court offices, he lied to the assistants at the bank when the flogging was occurring, he lies at work, he lies to the girls and tells them that the painter is going to paint his portrait. I find that he lies so often that it makes me wonder if he really is innocent.

The courts presence can be felt everywhere K. goes. When he visits the attorney there is the court clerk hiding in the darkness. The painters house is in different court offices, the flogging at his own business, are any of the women or the people he has assembled to help him with his defense trustworthy? How would he know who he can trust?

Do the girls represent innocence lost? The world of the courts that K. visits is dark and vile. The courts are secretive and do not follow the written law, the judges can be influenced by personal contacts but not evidence.

K. esteems himself highly and believes that others feel the same about him too. He is clearly suspicious and wary of the Vice President. What does he represent in the story? I see that he is a threat to how K. has defined himself as a successful businessman that has quickly worked his way through the ranks.

At first K. is not distracted by his trial but as it goes on he gets to a point where he cannot conduct his daily business. He is walking around in a haze and stupor. Whenever he visits the courts the air is choking and he can barely function. How can he defend himself in this state?

The painter makes a comment that K. has a particular love for the somber (he says this after he practically forces his work upon K.). I took this as a statement about Kafka himself, could it be that K. = Kafka?

None of the three outcomes that the painter explains to K. sound very likely to happen. Actual acquittal would be the best of all but it does not sound as if this ever occurs even if the defendant is innocent. Apparent acquittal and Protraction seem as if they are no better than just letting the case take it's course.

I don't know if it has any significance but the lawyer told K. a "true" story of the elderly officials who threw all of the lawyers down the stairs. Titorelli tells the girls that if they aren't quiet he is going to throw them down the stairs. Is there anything here or is this just coincidence?

What I have observed regarding the court system -

• Lawyers aren't officially recognized but merely tolerated
• The officials involved in cases don't know where they come from or where they go but only know the portion that they have to deal with
• The court seems to know all and is everywhere
• The defendants and their lawyers cannot learn about the charges against them and therefore have difficulties in building a defense
• Cases could be removed from the reach of the lawyer
• Defendants had to stick with their lawyer once engaged

more soon...

Next...

So- I finished! That is all I'm going to say because I want to wait for some of your thoughts on what is going on. I will say, I felt at the end as if a fairly significant event had taken placed and I missed it. What happened?!

Response...

For some reason I get the feeling that the V.P. has something to do with Josef's trial. Is he involved in the court maybe and wants to get Josef "out of the way" at the office? I could be totally wrong, but the V.P. just seems suspicious. He seems to be conveniently around when Josef has important matters with his trial. Such as: when Josef is trying to get away from helping the men waiting in the hallway including the manufacturer. You are right about men not asking for directions- I think there a lot of instances where typical "man" thinking comes into play during this novel. Probably because it was written by a man.

K. does seem to not be taking it very seriously and making poor decisions. However, it appears that even if he was taking it seriously there wouldn't be anything he could do. He makes his Uncle look like a fool and all for the comfort of a woman. Then you think about it- he got some of his fellow bank workers in trouble because he wanted to make amends for a woman. Then he gets into a scuffle with a man from the court- to try and save a helpless woman. More "male" thinking.

The episode of the three men being flogged in the closet was unbelievable. Why would the court conduct that sort of behavior, and at their place of work no less? Then they didn't leave the next day? It would be most advantageous to be a part of the court system as soon as possible and therefore avoiding any charges brought against you. Which brings me to the painter....

So many people are aware of Josef's trial. The painter wants to help and tells K. that he can get him off or at least try. Josef doesn't know what to say. I think Josef is in extreme denial about how serious this is. Does he really think that doing it on his own he can achieve actual acquittal? The painter thinks this is almost impossible- even if he is completely innocent. What is going on with the three UNDERAGE girls hanging out in his apartment? The most astonishing thing about the painter is he lives among another set of court offices. The painter informs K. that there are offices all over the city in almost every attic. These people are incredibly influential and all over the place so is this like the mob?

I'm glad you pointed out how K. seems to have multiple personalities. Sometimes he is bold and in control and other times he is whiny and out of control. I have a hard time connecting with his character, but I feel sympathy for him.

Uncle & Leni

I wanted to point out a few things before I continue my reading "binge" this weekend:

The Uncle: Why does Josef's Uncle not seem the least bit surprised by his trial? Not only that- but he's apparently aware of this weird court system and has friends involved with it? It is strange how Uncle Karl goes into the lawyer's bedroom and makes him get over his illness to help with Josef's trial.

Leni: Is it just me or are there bizarre encounters with young women in this story? I'm telling you- this Josef character must be one extremely handsome man to have so many "girls" throwing themselves (rather obscenely if you ask me) at him. Who does that? Haven't any of these people heard of going out for a cup of coffee or something? This tale doesn't seem to be getting any less odd.

One last thing, why hasn't anyone told Josef what he is being accused of? I'm already halfway through the book and have no clue what the charges are for his arrest. Please help me understand something I'm obviously missing!!

Observations ...

Lindsey - I am going back and reading the text since I am sure there is a bunch of information that I probably missed. Hopefully, I am not going back too far for you or pointing out things that may have been obvious to you.

When K. receives the call at work to set up the appointment for the inquiries it was set up to occur on Sundays to avoid disturbing his professional life. It seemed odd to me that a court would go to such lengths to help the defendants and not disrupt their lives. Did the vice president know about the inquiry and that is why he conveniently asked K. to go on the outing? As you read on you will notice that it is mentioned that K. and the Vice President are not on good terms.

I found it interesting that K did not ask for directions to get where the inquiry was held and that he lied about needing to find a carpenter. Is it typical guy behavior to not ask directions? Yes it is, but it is another thing to lie. So in addition to arriving late, although he wasn't sure of what time to proceedings were to start, he showed up at the court with false intentions. I can't imagine that the story he concocted wasn't reported to the officials as soon as he arrived on the grounds and that's why when he finally arrived they let him right in.

K. was trying to be more observant of his surroundings however, whenever anything has to do with his arrest/trial he uses poor observations/judgments. He insults the magistrate by taking his notebook and renouncing to the assembly with an air that he is above the process and that it is all a sham that he doesn't take seriously. After his rant he then discovers that they all are wearing the same pins on their jackets and yells at them all.

He told the assembly that during his arrest that the landlady, maid & the bank employess were there only so that they could spread the news of his arrest through the community. I hadn't thought of this but it does make sense since it almost everyone who K. encounters knows about his arrest and trial.

K. is a driven man and is proud that he has gotten far in his professional career. He doesn't seem to have many close relationships with others and it seems that he is fairly self interested. People are his pawns, he is weak willed especially when it comes to women. He is arrogant and feels that he is above many of the people with whom he is dealing with for his trial. I noticed that he uses physical force 2x when he is visiting the courts - once when he pushes the student and the second time is when he pushes down the defendant.

Why would K be so insecure about leaving from the building on his own and demanding that the usher show him the way? For a successful man this seems like unreasonable behavior unless he is used to demanding that people do things for him.

People have an odd way of discussing K. and his beliefs/intentions to one another in front of him. Willem and Franz at his arrest, and the lady and the Information Office K. meets at the law offices when they were trying to help him leave.

More to come...

K. and the visit to the offices...

Sorry it has been so long since I've commented but the past couple of weeks were crazy busy for me!!

I started reading it again just last night and so far I understand very little about the system of people who are putting K. on trial. Are they doing these things just to get money? His visit to the offices seemed almost like a dream- what with the other guy screaming and the usher just leaving him. Very weird.

Also, does there seem to be a lot of pretty young women around? That washerwoman seems "interesting".

First Thoughts

I think the first chapter is sometimes the most important of the entire book. The Trial starts out very ominous. There are definitely a lot of questions to be answered as you've pointed out. I'm not exactly sure of what is going on with the people watching him in the next house. Doesn't it seem like a play though, because of this "audience"?

The extra long paragraphs are hard to get through. I love the style of dialog- more natural.

I think the landlady knows more than she is letting on, very shifty if you ask me. The three men act towards Josef as if everything is normal and he should just go along with it. Very intriguing.

I think I'm going to like this one!

The Trial - Chapter 1

The first chapter does a fantastic job of introducing the characters and making you interested in the story. Why is Josef K. being arrested? If he is arrested then why is he not taken into custody and formally charged with something? Who is behind this?

Is Josef K. guilty of anything? The way that he answered the inspector's question as to whether or not he was greatly surprised by the morning's event was quite odd. He has an air of superiority about him and at first thought that this all could be a farce.

The inspector told K. that he should think less about us and what is going to happen to you and think more about yourself. He also told him he should talk less.

Do the 3 men from the bank know more about the situation? What about the old man and woman and the man with the goatee watching though the window; are they curious by-standers or do they have some interest in the situation? What about Frau Grubach - the line about her not looking as if she felt any particular sense of guilt - is that a foreshadow that perhaps she should look as if she felt guilty?

What do you think so far? Did you see what I meant about the paragraphs?

I listened to the first few chapters while driving but I am going back and reading it as well. I realize that I miss a lot by just listening to the story. Especially in a story like Wise Blood, I would have missed the dialectal way in which it was written.

98. The Trial

Franz Kafka's The Trial

Final Thoughts

I would say that police officers are suppose to be the "enforcers" of society. Perhaps we could consider them the "preachers" in everyday life. The ones who are guiding us and protecting us in a way. I think this would make sense then (if we could stretch it that far). However, they too are human and make just as many mistakes as the average person. The only thing that gives them authority (besides many times a weapon, like the Bible) is that a group of people decided collectively to recognize them as such.

I am also really glad that I was not brought up in a house full of religious fanatics. Don't get me wrong- I think religion can be a great thing. Sometimes some people take things a little too far or too seriously (can we say FLDS?). I wonder all the time at how individuals can go along with a crowd with no second thought to what they are going along with. Just because something makes sense for one person does not make it okay for everyone else. This world is not black and white- maybe that is what I found so intriquing about this book, nothing made sense.

Be that as it may I am looking forward to reading any book that might question religious values such as this one has!

Final thoughts

"I'm going to found the church of Christ without Christ, where the lame don't walk and the blind don't see and what's dead stays that way." Haze Motes

The murder of Haze's twin was handled so matter of factly that when I read it I wondered if it had indeed happened. Especially because it is never mentioned again, but that could be because the voice that the story is being told in changes. It does appear that he saw the man as a fraud but as he was his "twin" it was a reflection of himself so ultimately he saw that he was a fraud.

Do you think Haze is schizophrenic? I really can't decide what his illness he has.

I loved the part where Sabbath tells of the letters she wrote to the newspaper for advice. She did have a difficult life and I did not see easier times in her future.

It was interesting to me that it was a police officer who pushed his car off the ledge, this act alone sent Haze into his decline. Then it was another police officer who found him and hit him with the billy club that ended his life. Any subliminal message about cops here?

I am grateful for my religious upbringing, I did not have to endure all of the mental trauma that bible-thumpers inflict upon their followers. Sin, salvation, and redemption are ideas that are foreign to me and I cannot understand how intelligent people can believe without questioning. Guilt is enough punishment, it is so difficult to comprehend the self torture that Haze inflicts upon himself.

This book was difficult for me to get excited about reading. It's not that the characters weren't interesting because they are, I just didn't care about them enough to want to know what was going to happen next.

I imagine that there will be several books on the list that have strong religious overtones as religion plays such a pivotal role in many peoples lives.

May Contain Spoilers- The End

I think we are on the same page regarding the characters of this book. I felt sympathy for all of the characters except Enoch and Onnie Jay. It seemed that they were all products of their environments- just trying to survive.


Chapter 10: This quote was on of my favorites (there were a lot of quotable lines in this particular book):

"You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is all the place you've got."

This is the chapter that Haze meets the man who is his "twin". I think Haze finally takes a look at himself through this stranger and doesn't like what he sees.

Chapter 11: Have you figured out what illness Haze is suffering from? I think this chapter starts to show how sick he really is. Sabbath uses this to her advantage, what a sad life she has. How appropriate that Enoch would stand in a line of children to see the man in the Gorilla suit. Weird. He has such an odd obsession with animals.

Chapter 13: This was the most disturbing chapter for me. The description of how Haze takes down his twin is very forthright and almost without emotion. Do you see this as a metaphor for Haze really wanting to end his own life, by killing someone who is representing him in physical form? I agree that this is not the event that ends Haze's life, but rather the cop pushing his car into the embankment.

Final thoughts: I found Wise Blood mostly depressing and a little confusing. I agree that most of the characters were searching for acceptance. How sad and lonely they all were. I was not expecting the ending- which I liked, because of the unpredictability. Looking forward to next months novel!

Good link for further information regarding Wise Blood

http://www.freebooknotes.com/wiki/Wise_Blood

Now that I completed the book I found this great site that helped me to interpret it correctly. I don't feel too bad about our interpretations however. 98 books to go.

Done

I am finished.




Character summary - (my deductions, please feel free to add your opinions or criticisms)




Asa Hawks - he like Onnie Jay Holy were preachers for convenience sake. They used God and Jesus to eke out a living and get by in life. Although they wanted the world to see them as holy and saved it was only a con.




Sabbath Lily Hawks - she is just a young girl who wants to belong to someone and be loved. Why else would she cradle the new jesus that Enoch brings to Haze? She throws herself at Haze to try and seduce him so she can stay since her fraud of a father is ready to leave.




Enoch Emery - In the end he becomes that which he despises. I see it the same way in people who have homosexual tendencies but don't want to accept them and are abusive to those who are gay. It is like they are fighting against something they cannot control. I see this trait in Haze as well. I am not saying that he is gay. The quote that you provided does seem to apply to Enoch's character.




Haze - he wants to deny Jesus but in the end he is the only one who is tormented by him. Always mistaken for a preacher throughout the book he was destined to become one. Although he tried to fight it and speak out against it but the belief was too deep. He is punishing himself for his sins in unimaginable ways but in the end he could not escape his fate.



The Landlady all of the sudden became a main character, both Hawk's and Enoch are out of the picture entirely. Her initial motivation was money and greed. She was good to take care of him but had ulterior motives.

This book is filled with interesting characters that are not predictable or easy to understand.


I like the idea you mentioned of his car being his vehicle to heaven. He mentioned quite often that his vehicle would take him wherever he wanted to go and no one would agree that he had a good vehicle. Once the vehicle was pushed over the edge it was as if he were too. He went on a downward spiral after he lost his way out.


Other than Asa and Haze most of the main character were starved for acceptance, connection and belonging. Which is funny since when I think of "preachers" I imagine that is what they would want as well.

We started the movie over the weekend and they changed Sabbath's age to 17. I didn't imagine the shrunken man quite the way they have it in the movie.

Looking forward to your interpretation/comments.

A Quote-

"Free will does not mean one will, but many wills conflicting in one man."

-Flannery O'Connor

Do you think this explains Enoch a little better?

It's Just Getting Good.

I had never before thought about the clouds as a symbol of God. That is a really nice observation on your part, and I'm glad that you brought it to my attention.

It seems to me that all of the conversations Haze has (no matter who is on the other end) he is really just talking to himself. It is almost as if he can't distinguish between his person and everyone else. Does that make sense? Like he is unaware of anyone else- just himself. This idea shows up in a future chapter.

Chapter 8: Enoch is certainly a hard character to pin down. He definitely has a strange connection to animals- and other human beings for that matter! Enoch seems to have no other goal in life than self-gratification. Whatever makes "Enoch" happy is always first priority. It doesn't seem to me that he has any sense of right or wrong- just his blood? Why do you think that he is so adamant about getting that stupid mummy thing? It still doesn't make sense to me.

Haze seems to be running from something, even though the only thing he has to run from is religion/God. Is he over judgemental? Not really a good quality in someone who is supposed to be a "preacher".

Ch. 7 & 8

I have a bunch of random ideas and thoughts that I jotted down while I was reading. They aren't exactly complete but are just some observations.

When Haze and Sabbath Hawks were together the author mentions the cloud in the sky a couple of times and also at the end of the chapter. I felt that maybe this cloud was "God"watching over them. At the end of the chapter the cloud turned into a bird and headed the opposite direction. Are Haze and Sabbath going away from God and enlightenment?

When Haze has conversations with Sabbath they don't exactly have proper dialogue with each other and it's like they are carrying on their own conversation with themselves almost. Like when she was explaining that she was a bastard, Haze was trying to set it right in his mind without hearing anything else she was saying. He was working out in his head how her father blinded himself, I think that he wondered if the story is really true.

What did you think about the story she tells him about the girl that no one wanted? I thought it was about her. I pictured that because as she mentioned her mom died at childbirth that she was being raised by her grandmother who went crazy and hanged herself which is why she is now with her Dad but looking to move on with someone else.

It is interesting that Haze has his mind set to seduce her but when she flirts with him he does not reciprocate at all.

Chapter 8 - Enoch
I have many questions about this character.
Who is his daddy? Is he possessed? What the hell is wrong with him? He seems to be doing things that he can't control, because of his blood.

If he hates animals to the degree that he does, why would he work at the zoo? Also that whole crazy story about the moose in the frame.

I am thinking that his daddy's purse is going to come up again somewhere.

Haze's church hasn't quite had all of the details worked out yet. His preaching to me seems like double talk. It's not clear what his message is or at least to me. Why would he be looking for a new jesus to represent his church if this is supposed to be the Church without Christ?

I can see now where the body is coming in to play again. This should be interesting. Looking forward to your comments.

Strange is right!

I'm so glad that you also think Enoch is strange. I think in some way his character is meant to be comical, but I don't see it. He is just unimaginable!

Chapter 5: Haze is not nice to anyone and yes he did leave Enoch in the park bleeding! Something I've been noticing is the way Haze is not nice to ANYONE. Even people who are trying to help him- he is very stuck-up and rude to. Maybe he is afraid of getting close to anyone for fear they might die. This might be a reason for him preaching against Christ. The only thing I can think is that the woman and her children are representing purity or innocence? The little person in the case will come back in a future chapter- really creepy if you ask me.

Chapter 6: I like what you interpreted about the gas stations and hearing the "truth". The car in this book also is mentioned a lot. I know that Christians believe that in heaven your soul is given a "vehicle". Do you think that possibly his broken old junky car could be a representation of how he views his body? I'm never sure either if maybe I'm reading too much into things. Let me know what you think. I just read the next two chapters and even stranger things are happening. I can't wait to discuss these with you.

Also- I'm glad you posted your thoughts, because until today I had not noticed your previous comments attached to my posts. HaHa. So I thought you either were not getting my emails or something, because there was no response. I was thinking how unlike Denise that was- it was. What a relief!!

Chapters 4, 5 and 6

There are definitely some interesting characters in this book. None that I can relate to or would want to hang out with but true oddballs.

Chapter 4 - (Haze buying the car)
Like we had already discussed the kid at the car lot with turrets syndrome was a hoot. I noticed on page 70 a reference to 666 which is a sign of the devil. She was only referring to posts labeled 666 so I wasn't sure if it was a reference that he was on the road to hell or if it is just a road sign.

I thought that the sign he sees written on the boulder "WOE TO THE BLASPHEMER AND WHOREMONGER! WILL HELL SWALLOW YOU UP? Jesus Saves spoke directly to him and his situation.

Chapter 5 - (Enoch & the thing in the park)

Enoch - wow! Mr. Wise Blood himself is definitely a strange character. OCD, woman hater?, peeping Tom, and animal hater just to name a few quirks. I am curious as to why he despises the animals with such ferocity. The waitress despised him to the same degree and it didn't sound like the guard at the museum like him much either.

What role do the woman and her two children from the pool and the museum play? Was the body at the museum really important? Did Haze really hit Enoch in the head with a rock and leave him there?


Chapter 6 - (Haze preaching and the blind man)

You wonder what has happened to Haze in his life for him to be so obsessed about proclaiming to people all that he does against Jesus and how he does not believe. Who is he trying to convince when he makes his statements to others about not believing and being clean? It seems whenever he makes these statements to the strangers that they always act with hostility which I can see that I would as well. To me it's like, "who asked you and why are you telling me this?"

What is the attraction that Haze has to the "blind" man and his daughter? I agree that it is curious why he is so driven to preach. Why would the "blind" man's daughter want to leave him and want to go with Haze? It doesn't seem right to me that Haze would want to seduce her, isn't she only 15 or so?

At the end of the chapter Haze takes his car to be serviced. The first station tells him that it cannot be fixed so he leaves and takes it to another shop. The next station's mechanic tells him that he can fix it overnight and that it's a good car put together with good materials so Haze believes that he is honest and leaves it with him. I am thinking that this is foreshadowing something in the book or in life. If you don't like what someone tells you even if it is the truth you keep looking until you find someone who will tell you what you want to hear?

I never know if I am interpreting things correctly or not. Let me know what you think. I have many more questions than answers about the motivations of the characters.

Curious

I am still trying to understand the motivation behind Haze becoming a preacher "again". What does he see in the Blindman, and is he trying to prove a point? I'm interested to hear what you have to say about this. Also- ever since you mentioned the animal references I've been noticing them more. Thank you.

First Thoughts

My first thoughts on this book are slightly depressing. Do you think that Hazel has stopped believing in anything because everyone in his family has died? I am feeling very sympathetic for him.

99. Wise Blood

Flannery O'Connor's Wise Blood

June, 2008

Final Thoughts

I finally finished it! I think you are right about Frankenstein being more devilsh than God-like. In the first place- he abandoned his creation and left him to fend for himself. Perhaps if the creature had been shown a little more care from the beginning he would've been more accepted by society. I thought it took a lot of courage to admit defeat and concede his own life after Frankestein's death.

Monster

I think it is very interesting that the monster makes a reference to his own making being similar to the creation of Adam. Do you think that Mary Shelley made the monster more out of likeness of man or monster? It is my assumption that she wants you to perceive the "monster" as being more human with small qualities of a barbarian.

Side Note- when I looked up the word MONSTER in the thesaurus "Frankenstein" was listed under the options. The monster's name is not Frankenstein so am I understading now that Dr. Frankenstein is the real monster?

-Lindsey

100. Frankenstein

Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
May, 2008