Nov 26, 2012
Aug 3, 2012
Rebecca
Items to discuss -
Which character did you like the most?
Dislike?
Is murder ever forgivable?
The ending... Nice twist for the truth to come out.
Maxim -
Victim, hero, murderer?
What was source of money?
Family money?
Why was he in Monte Carlo?
Was he in love with Rebecca ever?
Was he in love with his new wife?
Mrs DeWinter -
Insecurities?
What were your thoughts about the cherub that she broke?
Sneaking around...
Trusting Mrs Danvers about the costume...
Jasper...
Was she really in love?
Mrs Danvers -
Crazy? Before or after she discovered the truth about Rebecca?
Which character did you like the most?
Dislike?
Is murder ever forgivable?
The ending... Nice twist for the truth to come out.
Maxim -
Victim, hero, murderer?
What was source of money?
Family money?
Why was he in Monte Carlo?
Was he in love with Rebecca ever?
Was he in love with his new wife?
Mrs DeWinter -
Insecurities?
What were your thoughts about the cherub that she broke?
Sneaking around...
Trusting Mrs Danvers about the costume...
Jasper...
Was she really in love?
Mrs Danvers -
Crazy? Before or after she discovered the truth about Rebecca?
Feb 19, 2012
The end of Howard's End
So far, this has been my favorite of the ten stories we have read- not my favorite of all time (mind you) but a good tale. I like the sisters, they remind of a pair of Jane Austin heroines only with more sex scandal.
I hadn't thought of it that way, but I think you are right about Tibby. What was his role in the story anyway- a very elusive distant character if you ask me.
What I found most intriguing about the plot was the connection between relationships and money. Life hasn't really changed that much from then, in fact it might have worsened. People say that they don't like the "hold" money has on us and yet not very many persons are willing to make the necessary sacrifices to escape the money "prison". As a society we like to feel powerful and in control of our lives and for some reason we believe that money gives us the means to this victory. Much like Mr. Wilcox- he couldn't fathom the idea of someone without money living in Howard's End and yet he has all these terrible skeletons in his closet that no amount of money could ever fix. The illusion is that he has it all, because he is wealthy, when his life was the biggest shame.
Leonard is our poor man. Indeed he was a poor man, I felt sorry for him right from the beginning. Since England had no "middle" class during this time period it is inevitable that one of the characters would represent the lowest of the low. What a terrible life to lead and then the end? What an end- he didn't even know he was a father which let's be honest, probably would have thrown him completely over the very low edge he was already on. I like to think that his "time" spent with Helen was his only true happiness.
Helen tried to do well. The timing of her "awakening" unfortunately was a second too late. She could have saved the whole lot if she had realized what her sister and her were doing when they were meddling in someone's life. Once again, money was the culprit. Since she didn't have to work for money it was of no consequence what occurred to the working class person such as Leonard.
Margaret was too naive for my liking. What in the world possessed her to hide her true feelings from Mr. Wilcox when she found out about Leonard's wife? The only thing I really liked about her story was the end when she came to terms with her sister.
I hadn't thought of it that way, but I think you are right about Tibby. What was his role in the story anyway- a very elusive distant character if you ask me.
What I found most intriguing about the plot was the connection between relationships and money. Life hasn't really changed that much from then, in fact it might have worsened. People say that they don't like the "hold" money has on us and yet not very many persons are willing to make the necessary sacrifices to escape the money "prison". As a society we like to feel powerful and in control of our lives and for some reason we believe that money gives us the means to this victory. Much like Mr. Wilcox- he couldn't fathom the idea of someone without money living in Howard's End and yet he has all these terrible skeletons in his closet that no amount of money could ever fix. The illusion is that he has it all, because he is wealthy, when his life was the biggest shame.
Leonard is our poor man. Indeed he was a poor man, I felt sorry for him right from the beginning. Since England had no "middle" class during this time period it is inevitable that one of the characters would represent the lowest of the low. What a terrible life to lead and then the end? What an end- he didn't even know he was a father which let's be honest, probably would have thrown him completely over the very low edge he was already on. I like to think that his "time" spent with Helen was his only true happiness.
Helen tried to do well. The timing of her "awakening" unfortunately was a second too late. She could have saved the whole lot if she had realized what her sister and her were doing when they were meddling in someone's life. Once again, money was the culprit. Since she didn't have to work for money it was of no consequence what occurred to the working class person such as Leonard.
Margaret was too naive for my liking. What in the world possessed her to hide her true feelings from Mr. Wilcox when she found out about Leonard's wife? The only thing I really liked about her story was the end when she came to terms with her sister.
Jan 17, 2012
Denise Johnson Would Like to Share a Passage with You.
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Howard's End - The End
As always with the stories we read, I walk away with unanswered questions but not as many this time as with the others.
Just a few thoughts. What do you think of Tibby's character? Where did he go at the end of the story? Did he stay a bachelor? Was he gay? I think they somewhat explained him as frail and fussy, did I read too much into this?
How much older was Mr. Wilcox than Margaret? I'm not sure I understood when and how she fell in love with him. Their relationship often seemed so cold and businesslike. Did he end up with her because of his wife wanting Howard's End to go to her? I disliked that he wasn't going to honor his wife's wishes and that Margaret only found out about the request from Dolly at the end of the story.
I did feel sorry for Jackie, why can someone who has no education or opportunities be held in such contempt by everyone? Perhaps she did have desires to improve herself but just not the means. Was she a prostitute? Is this how Mr. Wilcox came to know her? They used the phrase Mistress or lover though so maybe not.
Helen was a romantic and acted with her heart rather than her head whereas Margaret was the opposite. I am glad for Helen that she and her child could
be with Margaret at Howard's End. It was a surprise to me when Margaret mentioned that she didn't like children, it seems fitting that she would end up with Mr. Wilcox then whose children are grown.
Was Miss Avery the one who set everything in motion? She was the one who displayed the sword, unpacked the furniture and belongings.
She played a pivotal role in Len getting killed, Charles going to prison and everyone living back at Howard's end.
10 books down, finally! We will finish this list eventually. :)
Just a few thoughts. What do you think of Tibby's character? Where did he go at the end of the story? Did he stay a bachelor? Was he gay? I think they somewhat explained him as frail and fussy, did I read too much into this?
How much older was Mr. Wilcox than Margaret? I'm not sure I understood when and how she fell in love with him. Their relationship often seemed so cold and businesslike. Did he end up with her because of his wife wanting Howard's End to go to her? I disliked that he wasn't going to honor his wife's wishes and that Margaret only found out about the request from Dolly at the end of the story.
I did feel sorry for Jackie, why can someone who has no education or opportunities be held in such contempt by everyone? Perhaps she did have desires to improve herself but just not the means. Was she a prostitute? Is this how Mr. Wilcox came to know her? They used the phrase Mistress or lover though so maybe not.
Helen was a romantic and acted with her heart rather than her head whereas Margaret was the opposite. I am glad for Helen that she and her child could
be with Margaret at Howard's End. It was a surprise to me when Margaret mentioned that she didn't like children, it seems fitting that she would end up with Mr. Wilcox then whose children are grown.
Was Miss Avery the one who set everything in motion? She was the one who displayed the sword, unpacked the furniture and belongings.
She played a pivotal role in Len getting killed, Charles going to prison and everyone living back at Howard's end.
10 books down, finally! We will finish this list eventually. :)
Jan 3, 2012
First thoughts, up to chapter 11 now...
One of my initial thoughts when I first was reading this book is about some of the things that we take for granted on a daily basis. The ability to listen to whatever kind of music we want to at practically any time. Thinking that it in order to hear music it used to have to be performed live, it is such a foreign concept to me since radio and recorded music has been around for my entire life. Don't get me wrong, I love attending concerts but to think that it is the only time I will hear these specific songs would make me feel sad. Also, automobile travel and the right for women to vote, these are basic things that I don't ever give much thought to since it is part of my reality.
The book started getting interesting to me as soon as Mrs. Wilcox died. I have been able to cover more chapters now that I found the audiobook, hooray! I'm interested in seeing how things will progress from here. I know you are much further than I but I can't wait to see your initial thoughts...
Nov 28, 2011
90. Howards End
http://www.booksshouldbefree.com/book/howards-end-by-em-forster - this is a link to a free audiobook version if you are interested.
Jul 31, 2011
Final Thoughts on "The Rainbow"
I really enjoyed this book, and can't wait to read the sequel. Ursula was my favorite character (not just because she was a teacher). I liked the fact that she saw the destructive cycle that her parents were in and wanted to change it. I kept thinking up until the very end that she would end up marrying Skrebensky (who I think is 10 years her senior- not sure about that). Luckily for the two of them there was no such union- it would have been a disaster. It already was.
I think you were right when you talked about how Lawrence describes the colors of everything- quite a few times I noticed his vibrant explanations and words. I'm not sure what to make of the passage about the child walking in the fire. You are probably right, some foreshadowing or possibly a biblical reference that I am unaware of.
I tell you what the book was not missing- sex. Everyone was with everybody and the like, there were no borders or boundaries to who was attracted to who. I think it is the first book on our list that included a homosexual encounter. I thought the sex was a little overdone, but unfortunately our lives are dictated by our physical attractions- so Lawrence couldn't have wrote about life without it.
All done, looking forward to the next one!
I think you were right when you talked about how Lawrence describes the colors of everything- quite a few times I noticed his vibrant explanations and words. I'm not sure what to make of the passage about the child walking in the fire. You are probably right, some foreshadowing or possibly a biblical reference that I am unaware of.
I tell you what the book was not missing- sex. Everyone was with everybody and the like, there were no borders or boundaries to who was attracted to who. I think it is the first book on our list that included a homosexual encounter. I thought the sex was a little overdone, but unfortunately our lives are dictated by our physical attractions- so Lawrence couldn't have wrote about life without it.
All done, looking forward to the next one!
Jul 24, 2011
Denise Johnson Would Like to Share a Passage with You.
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Jul 3, 2011
Over half way done now too...
I have been able to get into this book more than a few that have been on our list. Yes, it is actually the first one I am reading vs. listening to. Although I did happen to find a free audiobook version, let's just say that not everyone has the voice talent that others may have.
My favorite character has been Tom Brangwen. He seemed like such a truly likable person, genuine in his heart. When we talked about the book at the party, thank you for not revealing his tragic demise.
The hostility that Anna has towards Will's love is of the church has to be difficult for him to deal with. Right after she had given birth to Ursula, "the rainbow" was described as something she was journeying to. I didn't catch it at first but I had marked the page because of a difficult passage that I wanted to make note of. What did you make of this passage? "The child she might hold up, she might toss the child forward into the furnace, the child might walk there amid the burning coals and the incandescent roar of the heat, as the three witnesses walked with the angel in the fire." Do you think it is some kind of foreshadowing about Ursula's life?
I was very disappointed that Will was trying to seduce that woman that he met. The description of the seduction was like a game of cat and mouse. The whole thing is such a manipulation. It sadly reminded me of all of the crap that guys tried to pull back in my younger days, I guess it hit a note.
Anna is just a baby making machine! How would it be to be able to bring someone in to do the cleaning so you can just look after the children? When are they the finding time, energy and privacy to be intimate?
Did you notice in the chapter first love with Skrebrensky, that the author took the time to describe the colors of their surroundings. It was as if he were painting the picture and bringing it to life with the colors. Looking back through the book, I did notice this in other parts too. I was confused during this part however. Did they take off during the wedding and go to the barge? What did that whole thing mean? Her giving her necklace to the baby and the couple naming their baby Ursula, it was interesting but a little strange too.
Now I am not a prude in any way but I think that whole situation with her older teacher came out of nowhere, I never saw it coming until it was boom! right there. Her parents must have too many children to supervise because I am not sure I would have let my daughter go away with her teacher. Also, how much older is Skrebensky? They sure were able to find plenty of time to be alone together, as a parent of a 16 year old I think it would be wise to limit the opportunity to get into trouble, especially back when the story was written because of pregnancy since I don't think they had birth control. I know Ursula and Skrebensky were "lovers" and "intimate" but does that automatically equate to sex? It must be because I just had a baby that pregnancy prevention is one of the things that comes to mind for me.
I feel like Ursula's Uncle Tom has a feminine side and that the author is alluding to him being gay. It could be because I just finished the section dealing with the tryst with her teacher and am reading too much into it.
Looking forward to finishing! Thanks for being patient with me.
My favorite character has been Tom Brangwen. He seemed like such a truly likable person, genuine in his heart. When we talked about the book at the party, thank you for not revealing his tragic demise.
The hostility that Anna has towards Will's love is of the church has to be difficult for him to deal with. Right after she had given birth to Ursula, "the rainbow" was described as something she was journeying to. I didn't catch it at first but I had marked the page because of a difficult passage that I wanted to make note of. What did you make of this passage? "The child she might hold up, she might toss the child forward into the furnace, the child might walk there amid the burning coals and the incandescent roar of the heat, as the three witnesses walked with the angel in the fire." Do you think it is some kind of foreshadowing about Ursula's life?
I was very disappointed that Will was trying to seduce that woman that he met. The description of the seduction was like a game of cat and mouse. The whole thing is such a manipulation. It sadly reminded me of all of the crap that guys tried to pull back in my younger days, I guess it hit a note.
Anna is just a baby making machine! How would it be to be able to bring someone in to do the cleaning so you can just look after the children? When are they the finding time, energy and privacy to be intimate?
Did you notice in the chapter first love with Skrebrensky, that the author took the time to describe the colors of their surroundings. It was as if he were painting the picture and bringing it to life with the colors. Looking back through the book, I did notice this in other parts too. I was confused during this part however. Did they take off during the wedding and go to the barge? What did that whole thing mean? Her giving her necklace to the baby and the couple naming their baby Ursula, it was interesting but a little strange too.
Now I am not a prude in any way but I think that whole situation with her older teacher came out of nowhere, I never saw it coming until it was boom! right there. Her parents must have too many children to supervise because I am not sure I would have let my daughter go away with her teacher. Also, how much older is Skrebensky? They sure were able to find plenty of time to be alone together, as a parent of a 16 year old I think it would be wise to limit the opportunity to get into trouble, especially back when the story was written because of pregnancy since I don't think they had birth control. I know Ursula and Skrebensky were "lovers" and "intimate" but does that automatically equate to sex? It must be because I just had a baby that pregnancy prevention is one of the things that comes to mind for me.
I feel like Ursula's Uncle Tom has a feminine side and that the author is alluding to him being gay. It could be because I just finished the section dealing with the tryst with her teacher and am reading too much into it.
Looking forward to finishing! Thanks for being patient with me.
Jun 24, 2011
1/2 Way Through...
*Spoiler Alert*
I was a bit surprised that this book was baned for some time in England. After reading it- I understood. The sexual tension and innuendos are alive in this story! I love it. Honestly this is my favorite book so far (of the eight that we have read); I can't put it down.
There is a reality to the way marriage is portrayed, even though I don't think so deeply about how much my husband pulls me down or lifts me up- there is definitely a continuous power struggle. I like the way he includes not only the female or the male version of what is going, but both sides and what goes on in their hearts and minds when they argue or make love.
We all know how dysfunction breeds more dysfunction (a little too much sometimes), however this tale incorporates that rule perfectly. It is almost as if the children are oblivious to the fact that their parents are struggling with each other and yet they end up in the almost exact same spot with their spouse, because this is what they know subconsciously. It is sad really when you come to the moment when Ursula realizes her first love- you know what is around the corner and the battle she will have to fight. She doesn't even stand a chance, especially when her father treats her so poorly!
At one time I did like Will and felt almost sympathy for him, but he turned to a dark spot literally and doesn't see that his little girl is screaming for attention from him, when all he doles out is criticism and abuse. How could they have so many children? Neither one of them is mature enough for parenting. I do like Ursula though, she seems like a thinker and a giver.
I can't wait to find out how this story ends...
I was a bit surprised that this book was baned for some time in England. After reading it- I understood. The sexual tension and innuendos are alive in this story! I love it. Honestly this is my favorite book so far (of the eight that we have read); I can't put it down.
There is a reality to the way marriage is portrayed, even though I don't think so deeply about how much my husband pulls me down or lifts me up- there is definitely a continuous power struggle. I like the way he includes not only the female or the male version of what is going, but both sides and what goes on in their hearts and minds when they argue or make love.
We all know how dysfunction breeds more dysfunction (a little too much sometimes), however this tale incorporates that rule perfectly. It is almost as if the children are oblivious to the fact that their parents are struggling with each other and yet they end up in the almost exact same spot with their spouse, because this is what they know subconsciously. It is sad really when you come to the moment when Ursula realizes her first love- you know what is around the corner and the battle she will have to fight. She doesn't even stand a chance, especially when her father treats her so poorly!
At one time I did like Will and felt almost sympathy for him, but he turned to a dark spot literally and doesn't see that his little girl is screaming for attention from him, when all he doles out is criticism and abuse. How could they have so many children? Neither one of them is mature enough for parenting. I do like Ursula though, she seems like a thinker and a giver.
I can't wait to find out how this story ends...
Jun 15, 2011
Jun 14, 2011
Finished at last...
Once I got back into the story, the book was surprisingly interesting to follow. I still can say I am not entirely clear on some of the minor characters and what their roles were in the plot or if they were just fluff and filler. I have had to go read Sparknotes to tie some of the story back together. I took the test just for fun and got a 76%, obviously there are still holes in my understanding of the story.
I was not exactly comfortable with the idea of Esther marrying her guardian, it just seemed a little creepy to me. It was refreshing to see how generous Mr. Jaryndce was in providing Esther and Mr. Woodcourt with their own version of Bleak House. Esther had been acting as a little mother to everyone, so it seemed a proper ending for her to have her own children. That Mr. Guppy was a funny little fellow, strange little man he was. Marry me, oh wait, never mind, oh marry me again?
Poor Ada! It is unfortunate for her that Richard passed away leaving her a young widow, what a waste of his life chasing the lure of money in the lawsuit. She is lucky that Mr. Jaryndyce is willing to take her in to support her and her child.
The whole estate being eaten up in costs and the suit ending because of it seemed like a tragedy unto itself. It was not a surprise to me however because costs were mentioned quite often. I didn't expect the lawsuit would end well, but I thought that there would have been a decision made.
Mr. Skimpole did not fail to disappoint me, I never liked that he lived on everyone else's dime and when times got tough he abandoned them, a real fair-weather friend.
Caddy's situation ended mixed for me. I was happy to learn that they ended up getting their own home but it was sad to learn of her child being deaf and dumb. It didn't sound like her mother ever ended up tending to her children but found another cause to support, too bad her family was so neglected!
So glad we are done with Dickens for a while. I am looking forward to getting back on a reading schedule, I have time to read when I am feeding the baby. I read aloud to her so hopefully this will help build her vocabulary while entertaining her too.
I was not exactly comfortable with the idea of Esther marrying her guardian, it just seemed a little creepy to me. It was refreshing to see how generous Mr. Jaryndce was in providing Esther and Mr. Woodcourt with their own version of Bleak House. Esther had been acting as a little mother to everyone, so it seemed a proper ending for her to have her own children. That Mr. Guppy was a funny little fellow, strange little man he was. Marry me, oh wait, never mind, oh marry me again?
Poor Ada! It is unfortunate for her that Richard passed away leaving her a young widow, what a waste of his life chasing the lure of money in the lawsuit. She is lucky that Mr. Jaryndyce is willing to take her in to support her and her child.
The whole estate being eaten up in costs and the suit ending because of it seemed like a tragedy unto itself. It was not a surprise to me however because costs were mentioned quite often. I didn't expect the lawsuit would end well, but I thought that there would have been a decision made.
Mr. Skimpole did not fail to disappoint me, I never liked that he lived on everyone else's dime and when times got tough he abandoned them, a real fair-weather friend.
Caddy's situation ended mixed for me. I was happy to learn that they ended up getting their own home but it was sad to learn of her child being deaf and dumb. It didn't sound like her mother ever ended up tending to her children but found another cause to support, too bad her family was so neglected!
So glad we are done with Dickens for a while. I am looking forward to getting back on a reading schedule, I have time to read when I am feeding the baby. I read aloud to her so hopefully this will help build her vocabulary while entertaining her too.
Jan 7, 2011
Up to Chapter 44
Here it is, I took a huge hole out of my reading during the holiday break. I started reading and couldn't put it down- especially when I found out Lady Dedlock's little secret. Esther is such a good girl (who in their right mind would agree not to talk to their mother just for the sake of her marriage?) Am I that selfish to think that Esther deserves a lot better than some rich spoiled woman as her idol? I feel hearthache for the loss she suffered because of the smallpox. Mr. Guppy is less than desirable- I am glad she denied his advances.
Richard is gone, he is too caught up in trying to find "himself" that he lost what was really important- his family. Another sad case of work becoming a higher priority. There is something endearing, however, about how devoted Ada is to Richard even through all his trials. To me his character represents a fair amount of young men (and women) who are thrown into real life without really knowing themselves first. It is a lot harder to discover things about yourself when you are also trying to establish yourself in society.
Mr. Jarndyce is an interesting old man, I foresee some difficult choices in the near future...
Why can't I know someone who would give me their "country" house for months with servants and every amenity just to relax and recuperate? Sigh.
I like the book, but I will be happy when I am done reading it!
Richard is gone, he is too caught up in trying to find "himself" that he lost what was really important- his family. Another sad case of work becoming a higher priority. There is something endearing, however, about how devoted Ada is to Richard even through all his trials. To me his character represents a fair amount of young men (and women) who are thrown into real life without really knowing themselves first. It is a lot harder to discover things about yourself when you are also trying to establish yourself in society.
Mr. Jarndyce is an interesting old man, I foresee some difficult choices in the near future...
Why can't I know someone who would give me their "country" house for months with servants and every amenity just to relax and recuperate? Sigh.
I like the book, but I will be happy when I am done reading it!
Sep 21, 2010
23 chapters in...
Okay Lindsey, I have taken my time in getting to this point in the reading. I feel like I have lost track of some of the characters, they are introduced, not mentioned again and suddenly brought back into the story. I am going back through Spark Notes to try to remember the significance of each character, hopefully I will be able to tie it all together without too much review.
I am not sure that I care for Richard's character at all. He seems like he doesn't know what he wants and is banking on the lawsuit to provide for he and Ada. Perhanps joining the army will be good for him since he obviously has some growing up to do. His irresponsibility seems somewhat like that of Mr. Stimpole. Speaking of Mr. Stimpole, how is it that Mr. Jarndyce puts up with having to support him financially? Plus why would Esther and Richard give him money to get him out of debt after just meeting him?
From the Sparknotes, I see that Esther is only 14, that seems awfully young for her to seem so mature but the name, "Little Woman" makes more sense now because she is so young. I still can't figure out how old Richard and Ada are but what's with cousins getting together?
Mrs. Jellyby is such a different character, her tireless pursuit with the people of Africa coupled with the neglect of her children makes me wonder what is going to happen to it all later in the story. I am glad that Caddy was able to connect with Esther and Prince but felt sorry for her when she tried to announce her engagement to her mother. I love the contrast between the two "charitable" women, Mrs. Jellyby and Mrs. Pardiggle. One neglects her children whereas the other drags them everywhere and forcing them to be charitable against their wishes. Neither group of children seems to be very happy with their circumstances.
I noticed in the Sparknotes that the story was written as a serial where a few chapters were released at a time. It is noted that the story is satire and a detective story, which explains why it is so hard to keep track of everything since it is somewhat of a mystery.
Please don't think I have given up on reading our novels, I am finally getting more motivated to finish. I apologize for the brief post but want you to know I am making progress.
I am not sure that I care for Richard's character at all. He seems like he doesn't know what he wants and is banking on the lawsuit to provide for he and Ada. Perhanps joining the army will be good for him since he obviously has some growing up to do. His irresponsibility seems somewhat like that of Mr. Stimpole. Speaking of Mr. Stimpole, how is it that Mr. Jarndyce puts up with having to support him financially? Plus why would Esther and Richard give him money to get him out of debt after just meeting him?
From the Sparknotes, I see that Esther is only 14, that seems awfully young for her to seem so mature but the name, "Little Woman" makes more sense now because she is so young. I still can't figure out how old Richard and Ada are but what's with cousins getting together?
Mrs. Jellyby is such a different character, her tireless pursuit with the people of Africa coupled with the neglect of her children makes me wonder what is going to happen to it all later in the story. I am glad that Caddy was able to connect with Esther and Prince but felt sorry for her when she tried to announce her engagement to her mother. I love the contrast between the two "charitable" women, Mrs. Jellyby and Mrs. Pardiggle. One neglects her children whereas the other drags them everywhere and forcing them to be charitable against their wishes. Neither group of children seems to be very happy with their circumstances.
I noticed in the Sparknotes that the story was written as a serial where a few chapters were released at a time. It is noted that the story is satire and a detective story, which explains why it is so hard to keep track of everything since it is somewhat of a mystery.
Please don't think I have given up on reading our novels, I am finally getting more motivated to finish. I apologize for the brief post but want you to know I am making progress.
May 6, 2010
First Thoughts
Well, I didn't think I would like this one- I am surprised by how much I do.
I feel a connection to Esther. How sad for her to have such a hard life at such a young age. She seems born with the right temperament for the problems that she has faced. I enjoy the part where she writes how she doesn't like to write about herself. It shows her true character. Also, she doesn't recognize how lovable she is since there seem to be many suitors for her.
I like Ada and Richard, they both seem happy together. From the beginning of the story it was obvious that they were going to lovers. I know that Esther says that Ada is the "pretty" one, but I believe Esther to be almost as pretty or even more so. It would not be a shock to me if further into the story we find out that Richard is actually in love with Esther.
The strangest character I have come across is Lady Dedlock. What is her deal? It is obvious that she is having an affair, or multiple affairs? I am still unclear about some of the things going on with her and her husband...
A part worth mentioning: the sad moment when they take a trip to the "ghetto" and watch as the mother of the dead infant realizes her baby is dead. Then the neighbor woman who risks getting beat by her husband just to nurture the poor woman while she grieves.
I feel a connection to Esther. How sad for her to have such a hard life at such a young age. She seems born with the right temperament for the problems that she has faced. I enjoy the part where she writes how she doesn't like to write about herself. It shows her true character. Also, she doesn't recognize how lovable she is since there seem to be many suitors for her.
I like Ada and Richard, they both seem happy together. From the beginning of the story it was obvious that they were going to lovers. I know that Esther says that Ada is the "pretty" one, but I believe Esther to be almost as pretty or even more so. It would not be a shock to me if further into the story we find out that Richard is actually in love with Esther.
The strangest character I have come across is Lady Dedlock. What is her deal? It is obvious that she is having an affair, or multiple affairs? I am still unclear about some of the things going on with her and her husband...
A part worth mentioning: the sad moment when they take a trip to the "ghetto" and watch as the mother of the dead infant realizes her baby is dead. Then the neighbor woman who risks getting beat by her husband just to nurture the poor woman while she grieves.
Jan 28, 2010
Politics or Easy Read?
I don't know how everyone else thinks, but our world would be a much better place if people just worked honestly- what ever it is that you do. Why live a life where you are a burden to society? What kind of a life is that? You are right- the motor company failed, because people just aren't like that. Of course, I work hard so that one day I can relax- or retire. So does that make me a lazy person in disguise? However, I don't rely on other people to take care of my family and children while I sit at home doing nothing all day. The same thing will happen when you release power to people who have no ambition to have it.
The health care system in this country is out of control. As a family, we have had our fair share of problems with it. I don't know if this reform bill will fix any of the problems- but not taking action is worse than trying something new. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. You are absolutely right, there is no painless solution there hardly ever is. Not everyone will agree to one thing.
The question is when are you going to get your bumper sticker?
Who is John Galt?
I am absolutely ready to read Bleak House. In fact I have already started, but I knew that you would pass me in just a few days so no hurry. So far- I like it.
The health care system in this country is out of control. As a family, we have had our fair share of problems with it. I don't know if this reform bill will fix any of the problems- but not taking action is worse than trying something new. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. You are absolutely right, there is no painless solution there hardly ever is. Not everyone will agree to one thing.
The question is when are you going to get your bumper sticker?
Who is John Galt?
I am absolutely ready to read Bleak House. In fact I have already started, but I knew that you would pass me in just a few days so no hurry. So far- I like it.
Dec 26, 2009
All caught up!
Lindsey, I do not want reading to be any pressure, you have plenty of stuff going on to keep anyone busy. Since I commute back and forth to school, it is much easier for me to fit this into my schedule. I will follow your lead, just let me know what your life will allow.
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I really liked the story about the 20th Century Motor Company and the failed social experiment. At face value it seemed like a noble idea that the owners of the company had, giving the company and leadership to the employees. The workers would work to their best abilities and those in need would get the help they need. But it is clear to see why this system would fall apart as it did. Why would you show any ability if doing so meant you had to work harder than your neighbors who could get everything for free by riding on your coattails. This story foreshadowed the ultimate fate of the country.
I also thought that it was interesting that the story of Robin Hood was shown to be the embodiment of everything that Rand was against - taking from the rich to give to the poor. I think it depends on how the rich actually became that way, I do not begrudge anyone who has earned their money honestly but knowing that there are many rich swindlers out there does make me feel that it is justified to take from them.
I am concerned about the health care reform bill that is being passed for the U.S. Is it going to be a situation of those who make more are once again going to be taxed at an even higher level? One concern is that the highest earners are going to start hiding their earnings even more than they already are and the middle class will get hit the hardest again. Our children are already going to have a more difficult time having the same or better quality of life than we have had so far. The tax burden is going to be crippling! I know there aren't any painless solutions.
Just a couple of comments on Dagny and John -
Dagny -
Yes, she did get around but I think that she treated sex as a pleasurable, fulfilling experience; unlike the way others viewed it as a vile, shameful and common act. Dagny also appreciated music, achievement, and wisdom on a higher level; she considered these things sacred and to be celebrated. I yearn to be as composed and self confident as she is but personable as well.
John Galt -
You were quick to figure out that he was the one who invented the motor, very perceptive! Although he was the philosopher and the brains behind the curtain, I really wanted Dagny to end up with either Hank Reardan or Francisco. I didn't fall in love with Galt, I'm not quite sure why.
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I am looking forward to reading The Fountainhead, I found it at a used bookstore and got it for Christmas. Bleak House is downloaded to my I-pod and I'm ready to go whenever you are, I have others to read (listen to) until you give me the go ahead. Thanks!
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I really liked the story about the 20th Century Motor Company and the failed social experiment. At face value it seemed like a noble idea that the owners of the company had, giving the company and leadership to the employees. The workers would work to their best abilities and those in need would get the help they need. But it is clear to see why this system would fall apart as it did. Why would you show any ability if doing so meant you had to work harder than your neighbors who could get everything for free by riding on your coattails. This story foreshadowed the ultimate fate of the country.
I also thought that it was interesting that the story of Robin Hood was shown to be the embodiment of everything that Rand was against - taking from the rich to give to the poor. I think it depends on how the rich actually became that way, I do not begrudge anyone who has earned their money honestly but knowing that there are many rich swindlers out there does make me feel that it is justified to take from them.
I am concerned about the health care reform bill that is being passed for the U.S. Is it going to be a situation of those who make more are once again going to be taxed at an even higher level? One concern is that the highest earners are going to start hiding their earnings even more than they already are and the middle class will get hit the hardest again. Our children are already going to have a more difficult time having the same or better quality of life than we have had so far. The tax burden is going to be crippling! I know there aren't any painless solutions.
Just a couple of comments on Dagny and John -
Dagny -
Yes, she did get around but I think that she treated sex as a pleasurable, fulfilling experience; unlike the way others viewed it as a vile, shameful and common act. Dagny also appreciated music, achievement, and wisdom on a higher level; she considered these things sacred and to be celebrated. I yearn to be as composed and self confident as she is but personable as well.
John Galt -
You were quick to figure out that he was the one who invented the motor, very perceptive! Although he was the philosopher and the brains behind the curtain, I really wanted Dagny to end up with either Hank Reardan or Francisco. I didn't fall in love with Galt, I'm not quite sure why.
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I am looking forward to reading The Fountainhead, I found it at a used bookstore and got it for Christmas. Bleak House is downloaded to my I-pod and I'm ready to go whenever you are, I have others to read (listen to) until you give me the go ahead. Thanks!
Dec 18, 2009
Three Months Later...
My heart sunk as I saw the date of your last post. Promise: I have not given up! With the school workload, job, motherhood, etc... it has been increasingly difficult to post, but the good news is:
I FINISHED THE BOOK!!
The reason I liked this book so much is because of Dagny. What a strong woman (granted she seems to have slept with just about every major male figure in the story), she was the only one that didn't give up. I can't figure out if her relationship with John Galt is a good thing or bad thing. I wonder if his love for her is based on his need to be in charge of all the great minds. Nonetheless, Dagny is the vision of intelligence and wit. I like her character and aside from her constant bed-hopping, I like the way she handled life.
Lillian is the exact opposite of Dagny. You are right she is very cold-hearted. No, she didn't love Hank only herself. Her actions were deceitful.
Not sorry to read that James Taggert finally got what was coming to him. I feel bad about his wife. He was a rotten man who thought only of himself and when he realized how he evil he really was I was slightly shocked. I thought for sure he would continue his slimy trail through life without feeling any remorse what-so-ever.
Francisco is an interesting character. Working in the mills for Rearden showed that he really did care even though as a reader I was beginning to wonder. He wanted Rearden to leave and he wanted to be his friend. Francisco's solution to the looters was unique, instead of disappearing he played the sabotage game.
That's all for now, I want to give you a chance to post in reply... Thanks again for waiting for me!!!
Sep 14, 2009
It just keeps getting better...
I am sorry but I can't stop myself from listening to the book, plus my family is giving me ample opportunity to do so.
I just finished Book 2, I can see the light at the end of the proverbial tunnel, but I don't want to reach it yet. Our next book is by Dickens, and the last thing that I read of his I did not particularly care for, it was Great Expectations.
Lillian finally learned who's Hank's mistress. She is very scheming and seeks to punish and destroy her husband rather than to allow him to divorce her. Trading her secret about her husband to men like James Taggart is inconceivable. I don't know if she ever had any passion or loved him at all or if she is just an uptight, cold hearted person.
The meeting of the Washington men and how Directive 10-289 was put into effect just baffled me. How is it that this group, all of whom had a vested interest in the outcome of such an initiative could have so much influence. Trading favors and secrets will only work for so long, eventually someone will lose their leverage and power. The Unification Board created irrational demands of the country. How could they "freeze" the economy? Why would they not want additional research so that new inventions could be created? I try to think of my own life and imagine what it would be like to have to purchase the same amount of goods as in previous years. Things wear out like tires, dishwashers, clothes. If no new books were being printed who was going to repurchase ones that they already owned?
Dr. Ferris is a scary man with all of the BS that he preaches. I was sorry to know that he found out Hank Rearden's weak spot, Dagny, which he used against him and forced Rearden's hand to sign the gift certificate for Rearden metal.
When Dagny quit, I had hoped that James would end up with the stresses of her position but I should have known that he would pass the buck, he is not a worker just a politician. She was not content to relax and enjoy her quasi retirement but she continually worked to improve her surroundings and even planned out development for the places she encountered.
Ch. 7
So much important information is disclosed in this chapter. I often find myself so wrapped up into the story that I speak aloud about the characters and plot to my families amusement, this was one of those chapters.
Conceited, bloated politicians who are only concerned about their own ambitions and power, like Mr. Kip Chalmers. Every person involved in the chain was responsible for the deaths of all the riders on the Comet, why didn't anyone stand up for what was right? The explanation about who the passengers were didn't paint them in a positive light, their fate was almost forgivable after you found out about the character/politics of those who perished.
Rearden leaving Lillian and giving his lawyer a blank check to ensure that he got it, I cheered but wondered why he waited so long. Then when he is encountered on his walk in the forest by Ragnon who hands him the brick of gold, I couldn't believe it. Are all of the great minds hiding together in some unknown spot, it sure sounds like it, especially since he mentioned Midas Mulligan and his bank. I am glad that he is trying to protect the capitalists interest but it is regrettable that he had to become an outlaw to do so. Orren Boyle's furnaces being blown up so that he could not manufacture the "miracle metal" was something else to cheer for, he is such a worm.
Ok, that's all I have time for now but I will continue. Forgive me for getting so far ahead.
I just finished Book 2, I can see the light at the end of the proverbial tunnel, but I don't want to reach it yet. Our next book is by Dickens, and the last thing that I read of his I did not particularly care for, it was Great Expectations.
Lillian finally learned who's Hank's mistress. She is very scheming and seeks to punish and destroy her husband rather than to allow him to divorce her. Trading her secret about her husband to men like James Taggart is inconceivable. I don't know if she ever had any passion or loved him at all or if she is just an uptight, cold hearted person.
The meeting of the Washington men and how Directive 10-289 was put into effect just baffled me. How is it that this group, all of whom had a vested interest in the outcome of such an initiative could have so much influence. Trading favors and secrets will only work for so long, eventually someone will lose their leverage and power. The Unification Board created irrational demands of the country. How could they "freeze" the economy? Why would they not want additional research so that new inventions could be created? I try to think of my own life and imagine what it would be like to have to purchase the same amount of goods as in previous years. Things wear out like tires, dishwashers, clothes. If no new books were being printed who was going to repurchase ones that they already owned?
Dr. Ferris is a scary man with all of the BS that he preaches. I was sorry to know that he found out Hank Rearden's weak spot, Dagny, which he used against him and forced Rearden's hand to sign the gift certificate for Rearden metal.
When Dagny quit, I had hoped that James would end up with the stresses of her position but I should have known that he would pass the buck, he is not a worker just a politician. She was not content to relax and enjoy her quasi retirement but she continually worked to improve her surroundings and even planned out development for the places she encountered.
Ch. 7
So much important information is disclosed in this chapter. I often find myself so wrapped up into the story that I speak aloud about the characters and plot to my families amusement, this was one of those chapters.
Conceited, bloated politicians who are only concerned about their own ambitions and power, like Mr. Kip Chalmers. Every person involved in the chain was responsible for the deaths of all the riders on the Comet, why didn't anyone stand up for what was right? The explanation about who the passengers were didn't paint them in a positive light, their fate was almost forgivable after you found out about the character/politics of those who perished.
Rearden leaving Lillian and giving his lawyer a blank check to ensure that he got it, I cheered but wondered why he waited so long. Then when he is encountered on his walk in the forest by Ragnon who hands him the brick of gold, I couldn't believe it. Are all of the great minds hiding together in some unknown spot, it sure sounds like it, especially since he mentioned Midas Mulligan and his bank. I am glad that he is trying to protect the capitalists interest but it is regrettable that he had to become an outlaw to do so. Orren Boyle's furnaces being blown up so that he could not manufacture the "miracle metal" was something else to cheer for, he is such a worm.
Ok, that's all I have time for now but I will continue. Forgive me for getting so far ahead.
Aug 31, 2009
Oh my...
So you have a reference point, I just began chapter 5 of Book 2.
Wow, so much to discuss...
Jim's wedding
First off, I comprehend that he married this naieve girl because of the way she worships him and for his own political statement. James Taggart is such a small man, and his dirty dealing is made very clear in the conversation regarding Wesley Mouch. Wesley is the man with the power and should be feared, he is a double trader and his dealings in Washington are dangerous to all.
Lillian showing up and demanding that they go to the wedding together was a surprise but the confrontation between Dagny and Lillian regarding the bracelet really had me stressed out. When Hank had her apologize regarding her remarks to Dagny I saw that he picked a side to be on and it was Dagny's.
I loved it when Francisco shows up and Jim is caught off guard. Jim shows one face to the world but not his true face. When it is disclosed that he, as well as many of the wealthiest men in America, has still been investing in d'Anconia Copper under assumed names it becomes more clear just how greedy they are though trying to portray that they are something better. The speech that Francisco makes in response to the statement that money is the root of all evil must exemplify Ayn Rand's philosophy regarding money and capitalism.
When Lillian discovers that Hank has been having an affair and does not want a divorce because she would rather maintain her social standing she shows her real character to me. I am waiting for her to discover who it is with but she assumes that it is some slut or prostitute.
Thanksgiving
The exquisite table setting and the mere cost of the items showed that Lillian was not interested in the social good but that she enjoyed her money and spent in excess. Phillip really was put in his place after his rant about the reason that Hank was going to be on trial the next day. He bit the hand that fed him one too many times. The mother is the reason her son is such a weasel, she needed to make him stand on his own and earn a living rather than to act as a parasite on his own brother.
The Economy
Who is the destroyer? Why are the only successful businessmen disappearing and giving up their lives work? It is easy to see how the chain reactions can take down the economy little by little. The politics make no sense to me, how can the politicians think than you can take and take and that the country will still be able to run normally? Are Dagny and Hank strong enough and driven enough to hold the country together and for how long?
Francisco
I am still trying to figure out what Francisco is trying to prove? It was very clever the way he implied the stock of his company was going to fall, he triggered the crash with that very information. It saddened me that Hank's shipment of copper for Dagny's rail ended up being intercepted by Ragnar Danneskjold and how this hurt his relationship with Hank. I have enjoyed the sections where they were becoming friends. I'm not surprised that he is not the playboy that he wants the world to believe he is, what happened twelve years ago that turned him into the person he is?
I can't wait to hear your thoughts, I have been listening more lately now that the kids have gone back to school. This book is a very popular read right now, I didn't know if you have noticed. The movie is currently in production too. Do we have a date for dinner and a movie when it comes out?
Wow, so much to discuss...
Jim's wedding
First off, I comprehend that he married this naieve girl because of the way she worships him and for his own political statement. James Taggart is such a small man, and his dirty dealing is made very clear in the conversation regarding Wesley Mouch. Wesley is the man with the power and should be feared, he is a double trader and his dealings in Washington are dangerous to all.
Lillian showing up and demanding that they go to the wedding together was a surprise but the confrontation between Dagny and Lillian regarding the bracelet really had me stressed out. When Hank had her apologize regarding her remarks to Dagny I saw that he picked a side to be on and it was Dagny's.
I loved it when Francisco shows up and Jim is caught off guard. Jim shows one face to the world but not his true face. When it is disclosed that he, as well as many of the wealthiest men in America, has still been investing in d'Anconia Copper under assumed names it becomes more clear just how greedy they are though trying to portray that they are something better. The speech that Francisco makes in response to the statement that money is the root of all evil must exemplify Ayn Rand's philosophy regarding money and capitalism.
When Lillian discovers that Hank has been having an affair and does not want a divorce because she would rather maintain her social standing she shows her real character to me. I am waiting for her to discover who it is with but she assumes that it is some slut or prostitute.
Thanksgiving
The exquisite table setting and the mere cost of the items showed that Lillian was not interested in the social good but that she enjoyed her money and spent in excess. Phillip really was put in his place after his rant about the reason that Hank was going to be on trial the next day. He bit the hand that fed him one too many times. The mother is the reason her son is such a weasel, she needed to make him stand on his own and earn a living rather than to act as a parasite on his own brother.
The Economy
Who is the destroyer? Why are the only successful businessmen disappearing and giving up their lives work? It is easy to see how the chain reactions can take down the economy little by little. The politics make no sense to me, how can the politicians think than you can take and take and that the country will still be able to run normally? Are Dagny and Hank strong enough and driven enough to hold the country together and for how long?
Francisco
I am still trying to figure out what Francisco is trying to prove? It was very clever the way he implied the stock of his company was going to fall, he triggered the crash with that very information. It saddened me that Hank's shipment of copper for Dagny's rail ended up being intercepted by Ragnar Danneskjold and how this hurt his relationship with Hank. I have enjoyed the sections where they were becoming friends. I'm not surprised that he is not the playboy that he wants the world to believe he is, what happened twelve years ago that turned him into the person he is?
I can't wait to hear your thoughts, I have been listening more lately now that the kids have gone back to school. This book is a very popular read right now, I didn't know if you have noticed. The movie is currently in production too. Do we have a date for dinner and a movie when it comes out?
Aug 12, 2009
Finished with Book One
There were several things that stood out in my mind from the first book. I can't understand how Dagny could have agreed to construct the John Galt line and protect the interests of Taggart Transcontinental. Especially when her brother is against her, why would she protect that sniveling, slimy worm. I had great disdain for him when he sprung it on her that she was going to speak and debate the sleazy reporter in front of a group of people about Rearden Metal.
Several themes keep popping up:
1 - Blame - This is mentioned quite often as people make excuses about why they have not fulfilled their duties.
2 - Contradictions - There are many instances where people who speak about their circumstances and contradict themselves.
3 - Important people disappearing - Richard Halley, Midas Mulligan, Hugh Askton, and Ellis Wyatt.
4 - Shrugging - is it coincidental or part of the title. She mentions people shrugging quite a bit.
5 - Knowledge - all of the cynicism about what it is that we think we know and how it is all an illusion. The great brains of their time do a lot of spouting off about how we can't know anything, if this is true why would we believe them?
The relationship that Dagny has for Rearden is quite interesting. Is she in love with him or is she okay just being with him for physical gratification? Dagny seems at peace with her sexuality and does not view it in the negative light that Hank Rearden does, he seems to despise himself for having any desires whatsoever.
I don't understand how the people who want to take from the businesses see them as money grubbers. Businesses employ people and improve their livelihood. It does not matter how nice the people are or what they hope to do, if they are not a good risk a bank should not lend them money. As it is shown in the current economy like in the book, the companies and banks who lent money on intentions failed. When they fail, who is left to pick up the pieces? Good intentions do not pay salaries, do research, create jobs. If these businesses fail, so does the stability of those who depend on them.
I will write more soon, too much to say.
Several themes keep popping up:
1 - Blame - This is mentioned quite often as people make excuses about why they have not fulfilled their duties.
2 - Contradictions - There are many instances where people who speak about their circumstances and contradict themselves.
3 - Important people disappearing - Richard Halley, Midas Mulligan, Hugh Askton, and Ellis Wyatt.
4 - Shrugging - is it coincidental or part of the title. She mentions people shrugging quite a bit.
5 - Knowledge - all of the cynicism about what it is that we think we know and how it is all an illusion. The great brains of their time do a lot of spouting off about how we can't know anything, if this is true why would we believe them?
The relationship that Dagny has for Rearden is quite interesting. Is she in love with him or is she okay just being with him for physical gratification? Dagny seems at peace with her sexuality and does not view it in the negative light that Hank Rearden does, he seems to despise himself for having any desires whatsoever.
I don't understand how the people who want to take from the businesses see them as money grubbers. Businesses employ people and improve their livelihood. It does not matter how nice the people are or what they hope to do, if they are not a good risk a bank should not lend them money. As it is shown in the current economy like in the book, the companies and banks who lent money on intentions failed. When they fail, who is left to pick up the pieces? Good intentions do not pay salaries, do research, create jobs. If these businesses fail, so does the stability of those who depend on them.
I will write more soon, too much to say.
Jul 31, 2009
Book I
The first question I have after reading is: who is the third student of Dr. Akston and Stadler? Why won't anyone tell Dagny the name of this person? I of course want to conclude that it is John Galt- but that is too easy, isn't it? I think it is interesting that Ragnar is now a pirate and Francisco is a playboy- yet the famous philosopher Dr. Akston is proud of them? I'm confused.
I have to agree that this book is easier to follow and more interesting than any book we have read so far. This is good for many reasons but mostly because it is A BIG BOOK, can you imagine?
"...real devotion consists of being willing to lie, cheat and fake in order to make another person happy- to create for him the reality he wants, if he doesn't like the one that exists."
- I like this quote, for some reason. Is it our responsibility to make ourselves happy or does some of the duty rely on our acquaintances and loved ones? Dagny is an example of how one person can create the reality she wants- however there are forces beyond her control that alter her reality. The politics in this book are out of this world! I can't believe how easy it is for men of power to inflict rules and laws that are meant for good when actually they have the opposite effect. I'm sure you are learning about all of this in your class- please feel free to share any information that might help me understand it better.
What do you think about the person who created the engine? What did Akston mean when he told Dagny that he will find her when he wants to? Once again- is it John Galt who invented the engine? Very mysterious.
One last thing- I started to feel kind of bad for Rearden's wife, even though at the beginning of the story I didn't like her (or his Mom) at all. We saw some emotion from her that finally made a little bit of sense.
I have to agree that this book is easier to follow and more interesting than any book we have read so far. This is good for many reasons but mostly because it is A BIG BOOK, can you imagine?
"...real devotion consists of being willing to lie, cheat and fake in order to make another person happy- to create for him the reality he wants, if he doesn't like the one that exists."
- I like this quote, for some reason. Is it our responsibility to make ourselves happy or does some of the duty rely on our acquaintances and loved ones? Dagny is an example of how one person can create the reality she wants- however there are forces beyond her control that alter her reality. The politics in this book are out of this world! I can't believe how easy it is for men of power to inflict rules and laws that are meant for good when actually they have the opposite effect. I'm sure you are learning about all of this in your class- please feel free to share any information that might help me understand it better.
What do you think about the person who created the engine? What did Akston mean when he told Dagny that he will find her when he wants to? Once again- is it John Galt who invented the engine? Very mysterious.
One last thing- I started to feel kind of bad for Rearden's wife, even though at the beginning of the story I didn't like her (or his Mom) at all. We saw some emotion from her that finally made a little bit of sense.
Jul 2, 2009
Atlas Shrugged - first post
First off, let me start by stating that although it is early in the book I have to say that this has been the easiest of the books so far to get into. The language and writing style is very accessible.
I am part way through chapter 6 now. I was able to listen for a couple of hours while driving to and from Vegas over the past weekend. I go to school 3x a week so it should be easy for me to listen at least 3 hours a week for the next few weeks.
It is strange how this story has affected me emotionally. As you know, one of the classes that I am taking this summer is Economic History which of course is covering the railroads, mining and how America has become the economic power that it is. I am connecting the growth of the nation along with Taggert Transcontinental like Union Pacific, and Hank Reardon like Andrew Carnegie.
The contemptible attitudes of Hank Reardon's family and James Taggert and his friends against business ventures are so scary. They are preaching for the greater good of society as a whole yet they are all riding on the rich coattails of big business. It is easy for them to take this attitude since they have the money, not earned by their own work, to donate and plenty of time as well. You can see that politics are shaping the economic landscape with the anti dog-eat-dog agreement meant to hurt the smaller railroad players and the Equalization of opportunity bill which would hurt larger companies like Reardon Steel.
To me the noblest characters of the story (so far) have been Dagny, Hank Reardon, Don Conway of the Phoenix Durango, and even Ellis Wyatt in a minor way. They are driven by business, it is clear cut and easy to see their motivations. True capitalists, if you work hard enough you can make your dreams happen, isn't that part of the American Dream? As long as it is done honestly, why should we punish those who succeed?
I'm trying to understand what Francisco's motivations are. Is he trying to single handily destroy big business? Does he have feelings for anything? Has he discovered that men like James Taggart are fundamentally driven by greed and power although they try to show otherwise? It seems as if he knew back when he was at the hotel with Dagny and asked her to leave the railroad and to forgive him for whatever he will do in the future that he was going to ruin those men and their companies. You can see how all of these companies are tied together and how easily it will all fall apart.
Dagny and her love of the music of Richard Halley seems to be one of the only things in life that she enjoys other than work. It seems to also connects her to Francisco on a deeper level. I think it is important to her, has he really written a fifth concerto?
The Rearden Party -
The "intellectual" people who are the guests of the party rub me wrong! How depressing it would be to be with this group. The philosopher who states that the world is about frustration and all there is to live for is brother love, what crap. Also, what about the writer who has only sold 3000 books who wants to apply the equalization of opportunity bill to books so that no more than 10,000 copies of any book can be printed. Only one whose books do no sell well would benefit from this rule. If he were to become a popular author and the demand for his books were above the 10,000 allotted copies he would then protest this measure. These people have dangerous minds and ideas and too great an influence over those around them.
More to come...
I am part way through chapter 6 now. I was able to listen for a couple of hours while driving to and from Vegas over the past weekend. I go to school 3x a week so it should be easy for me to listen at least 3 hours a week for the next few weeks.
It is strange how this story has affected me emotionally. As you know, one of the classes that I am taking this summer is Economic History which of course is covering the railroads, mining and how America has become the economic power that it is. I am connecting the growth of the nation along with Taggert Transcontinental like Union Pacific, and Hank Reardon like Andrew Carnegie.
The contemptible attitudes of Hank Reardon's family and James Taggert and his friends against business ventures are so scary. They are preaching for the greater good of society as a whole yet they are all riding on the rich coattails of big business. It is easy for them to take this attitude since they have the money, not earned by their own work, to donate and plenty of time as well. You can see that politics are shaping the economic landscape with the anti dog-eat-dog agreement meant to hurt the smaller railroad players and the Equalization of opportunity bill which would hurt larger companies like Reardon Steel.
To me the noblest characters of the story (so far) have been Dagny, Hank Reardon, Don Conway of the Phoenix Durango, and even Ellis Wyatt in a minor way. They are driven by business, it is clear cut and easy to see their motivations. True capitalists, if you work hard enough you can make your dreams happen, isn't that part of the American Dream? As long as it is done honestly, why should we punish those who succeed?
I'm trying to understand what Francisco's motivations are. Is he trying to single handily destroy big business? Does he have feelings for anything? Has he discovered that men like James Taggart are fundamentally driven by greed and power although they try to show otherwise? It seems as if he knew back when he was at the hotel with Dagny and asked her to leave the railroad and to forgive him for whatever he will do in the future that he was going to ruin those men and their companies. You can see how all of these companies are tied together and how easily it will all fall apart.
Dagny and her love of the music of Richard Halley seems to be one of the only things in life that she enjoys other than work. It seems to also connects her to Francisco on a deeper level. I think it is important to her, has he really written a fifth concerto?
The Rearden Party -
The "intellectual" people who are the guests of the party rub me wrong! How depressing it would be to be with this group. The philosopher who states that the world is about frustration and all there is to live for is brother love, what crap. Also, what about the writer who has only sold 3000 books who wants to apply the equalization of opportunity bill to books so that no more than 10,000 copies of any book can be printed. Only one whose books do no sell well would benefit from this rule. If he were to become a popular author and the demand for his books were above the 10,000 allotted copies he would then protest this measure. These people have dangerous minds and ideas and too great an influence over those around them.
More to come...
Jun 24, 2009
Tell me what you thought...
Finished. Wow- that book was more racy than almost any modern day soap opera! What is it with all of the men in this story having illegitimate children and unexplained wives, etc...? It really doesn't paint a very good picture of the south during this time period.
Is the overall theme of the book racial relations? I'm just not sure what message Faulkner is trying to convey. Of course, there are a lot of family references too. Thomas Sutpen is a cruel man and everything he touched seemed to disintegrate: his children, his mistresses, his "wives", his house, his slaves, and especially himself. One of the saddest parts of the book for me was when he goes to see Milly and tells her its a shame she wasn't a mare so he could give her a stable. The book had many depressing elements.
The relationship between Charles and Henry is an interesting one. Why did Henry kill Charles? Did he really not want him marrying his sister- for which there are many legitimate reasons? Was he overcome with jealousy or embarrassment at finding out this was actually his brother? How could he kill his own brother- so many questions.
I had not read the commentary part- however, I was looking in the back of my book and stumbled across the list of characters and their relationships to one another and that is how I learned of Thomas' connection to Charles. This was shocking considering that he wanted to marry Judith. The ending was a bit confusing for me- especially when I was listening to it. So does Quentin hate the south or not?
It seems like quite a few of these books have been and are based in the south- it kind of makes you want to visit there. Maybe someday we can plan a trip together. :) I liked the book overall (the story was great) but it did seem like the narrators were winded in places, making it hard to listen to. Did you ever find the longest sentence? I'm wondering which one it is.
Is the overall theme of the book racial relations? I'm just not sure what message Faulkner is trying to convey. Of course, there are a lot of family references too. Thomas Sutpen is a cruel man and everything he touched seemed to disintegrate: his children, his mistresses, his "wives", his house, his slaves, and especially himself. One of the saddest parts of the book for me was when he goes to see Milly and tells her its a shame she wasn't a mare so he could give her a stable. The book had many depressing elements.
The relationship between Charles and Henry is an interesting one. Why did Henry kill Charles? Did he really not want him marrying his sister- for which there are many legitimate reasons? Was he overcome with jealousy or embarrassment at finding out this was actually his brother? How could he kill his own brother- so many questions.
I had not read the commentary part- however, I was looking in the back of my book and stumbled across the list of characters and their relationships to one another and that is how I learned of Thomas' connection to Charles. This was shocking considering that he wanted to marry Judith. The ending was a bit confusing for me- especially when I was listening to it. So does Quentin hate the south or not?
It seems like quite a few of these books have been and are based in the south- it kind of makes you want to visit there. Maybe someday we can plan a trip together. :) I liked the book overall (the story was great) but it did seem like the narrators were winded in places, making it hard to listen to. Did you ever find the longest sentence? I'm wondering which one it is.
Jun 3, 2009
Response to chapter 4 questions
The first chapter is told from Miss Rosa's point of view when she summoned Quentin to listen to the story before he leaves for Harvard. It was as if she laid out the whole story but it came out so fast that you don't recognize the players in it because you are not properly introduced to any of them. Rosa had a very difficult and sad life, she is quite bitter about it and blames Sutpen for all of the hardships she and her family had to endure.
I did not notice the homosexual overtones but the incestuous ones did make me uncomfortable. It was frustrating to me having characters referenced, like Clytie and Wash Jones, without knowing much about them but you slowly learn about them in later chapters.
If you read the commentary in the spark notes for Chapter 4, it gives away an important part of the story that you should not know yet, don't go back and look for it if you didn't catch it.
Most of the final chapters are retold in a conversation between Quentin and his roommate, Shreve. It is a long evening where they discuss the story and read the letter. You do learn more about the history of Sutpen too, where he came from before he raised Sutpen's Hundred from the swamps.
You had a question about Judith throwing a fit, it seems like she liked to race and was upset when they were told to stop, she was a feisty little girl whereas Henry was a squeamish little boy.
I appreciate that you are reading with me too. I worry that you have too much on your plate so just remember that we can go at whatever pace is most comfortable to you, its not supposed to cause you additional pressure, believe me I am okay. See you this weekend.
I did not notice the homosexual overtones but the incestuous ones did make me uncomfortable. It was frustrating to me having characters referenced, like Clytie and Wash Jones, without knowing much about them but you slowly learn about them in later chapters.
If you read the commentary in the spark notes for Chapter 4, it gives away an important part of the story that you should not know yet, don't go back and look for it if you didn't catch it.
Most of the final chapters are retold in a conversation between Quentin and his roommate, Shreve. It is a long evening where they discuss the story and read the letter. You do learn more about the history of Sutpen too, where he came from before he raised Sutpen's Hundred from the swamps.
You had a question about Judith throwing a fit, it seems like she liked to race and was upset when they were told to stop, she was a feisty little girl whereas Henry was a squeamish little boy.
I appreciate that you are reading with me too. I worry that you have too much on your plate so just remember that we can go at whatever pace is most comfortable to you, its not supposed to cause you additional pressure, believe me I am okay. See you this weekend.
Jun 2, 2009
Chapter Four, Reading Again...
After hearing this chapter I had to find some help because I was really confused- turns out after reading a few things on SPARKNOTES I had a right to feel confused.
I couldn't tell if Henry didn't want Bon to marry his sister because he was in fact having a relationship with her himself or if he wanted to have a relationship with Bon. Of course, the real reason was because he was already married to a prostitute or some girl he had won and then owned? It is hard to believe that things like this were going on in our country (they still are) not that long ago and people didn't get upset about it. Did you pick up on the homosexuality innuendos too, or am I crazy? The incest part wasn't that surprising since I think Faulkner hints at it in an earlier chapter- something about the children being too close?
I love southern dialectic, the accent is fun to listen to. I like the line at the end of this chapter made by Wash Jones: "Kilt him dead as a beef".
Also- when are we going to hear from Rosa Coldfield? Has she already talked? Am I correct in saying that the entire story up until now has been told by Quentin's grandfather? Quentin's grandmother was a friend to Judith and she was the one who received the letter from her, right? I hope I'm getting it all, please tell me if there is something I've missed. Thanks again for the book. You are too nice to me!
I couldn't tell if Henry didn't want Bon to marry his sister because he was in fact having a relationship with her himself or if he wanted to have a relationship with Bon. Of course, the real reason was because he was already married to a prostitute or some girl he had won and then owned? It is hard to believe that things like this were going on in our country (they still are) not that long ago and people didn't get upset about it. Did you pick up on the homosexuality innuendos too, or am I crazy? The incest part wasn't that surprising since I think Faulkner hints at it in an earlier chapter- something about the children being too close?
I love southern dialectic, the accent is fun to listen to. I like the line at the end of this chapter made by Wash Jones: "Kilt him dead as a beef".
Also- when are we going to hear from Rosa Coldfield? Has she already talked? Am I correct in saying that the entire story up until now has been told by Quentin's grandfather? Quentin's grandmother was a friend to Judith and she was the one who received the letter from her, right? I hope I'm getting it all, please tell me if there is something I've missed. Thanks again for the book. You are too nice to me!
Mar 31, 2009
It is complicated...
You see- this is why I'm so glad you are doing this with me. I missed the fact that Rosa was married to Sutpen. Thank you for being so thorough, otherwise I think I would have been really lost! Also, where does Clytemnestra fit into the equation? Is she also Ellen's daughter? Possibly this has been discussed and I just haven't gotten to that part. I really am reading as much as I can, it seems so short but because of the difficulty it takes me quite a lot to read one page.
This story is interesting to me. I am fascinated with the old-south and was slightly nervous that it was going to be like Wise Blood.
I think the reason Ellen was crying was because she wanted a huge wedding with the perfect groom. She didn't get what she wanted and knew that her life would never be what she wanted it to be. Why was Judith throwing a fit? I didn't quite understand that part.
I promise to keep reading. I was concerned when I received your email saying you only had 20 minutes left to listen to. I felt so bad because I'm not even close to being done and I didn't want you to think I wasn't interested.
This story is interesting to me. I am fascinated with the old-south and was slightly nervous that it was going to be like Wise Blood.
I think the reason Ellen was crying was because she wanted a huge wedding with the perfect groom. She didn't get what she wanted and knew that her life would never be what she wanted it to be. Why was Judith throwing a fit? I didn't quite understand that part.
I promise to keep reading. I was concerned when I received your email saying you only had 20 minutes left to listen to. I felt so bad because I'm not even close to being done and I didn't want you to think I wasn't interested.
Feb 28, 2009
Chapter 2 down...
I'm not sure if you have time for this in your life, if not let me know and I'll hold off. If you want to listen to the audiobook, I have extra credits at Audible.com and I will send it to you.
Ok, it's been a great week, I have listened to Chapter 1 and Chapter 2, twice. Since this book is so short, that is going to be my strategy (listening to each chapter at least twice) since actually picking up and reading the text seems to elude me due to time constraints.
It's interesting that the story in Chapter 2 is told to Quentin from his father's perspective and not Rosa Coldfield's. This chapter goes into more detail about who are the main characters of this story. You start to get more of an idea of what Sutpen is like but not who he is and what motivates him.
I still cringe at the "n" word and how these people were treated in reality and are portrayed in literature. What was with the French speaking architect who worked for 2 years without pay? Why would he have done this? Was he afraid of Sutpen? I'm not sure I understood why Ellen was crying so much before her wedding, was it because she was being forced into it by her Aunt or because no one showed up? I'm sure we will find out why although Rosa had stated she agreed to marry Sutpen after her sisters death, she still was a virgin.
Ok, it's been a great week, I have listened to Chapter 1 and Chapter 2, twice. Since this book is so short, that is going to be my strategy (listening to each chapter at least twice) since actually picking up and reading the text seems to elude me due to time constraints.
It's interesting that the story in Chapter 2 is told to Quentin from his father's perspective and not Rosa Coldfield's. This chapter goes into more detail about who are the main characters of this story. You start to get more of an idea of what Sutpen is like but not who he is and what motivates him.
I still cringe at the "n" word and how these people were treated in reality and are portrayed in literature. What was with the French speaking architect who worked for 2 years without pay? Why would he have done this? Was he afraid of Sutpen? I'm not sure I understood why Ellen was crying so much before her wedding, was it because she was being forced into it by her Aunt or because no one showed up? I'm sure we will find out why although Rosa had stated she agreed to marry Sutpen after her sisters death, she still was a virgin.
Feb 25, 2009
First post
I have now listened to Chapter One two times now and decided that I need to buy the book to get all of the characters, dates, and vocabulary worked out. I bought it last night and started going through it.
The characters I've deciphered so far are -
Rosa Coldfield (Ellen's sister) - she is telling the story to Quentin
Sutpen - he marries Ellen, then after she dies he marries Rosa
Ellen Coldfield
Judith - daughter of Ellen and Sutpen
Henry - son of Ellen and Sutpen
There is a large age gap between Rosa and Ellen.
Quentin Compson - the story is being told to him. His Granfather was a friend of Sutpen's.
The audiobook is interesting to listen to because the author uses somewhat of a southern accent/drawl. A little fact I saw about this book is that it boasts the longest sentence -- drumroll, please... 1300 words. Why would anyone make a story so difficult to understand?
I just wanted you to know that I started, and started again. My vocabulary is expanding, else I repeat looking up definitions in the dictionary.
The characters I've deciphered so far are -
Rosa Coldfield (Ellen's sister) - she is telling the story to Quentin
Sutpen - he marries Ellen, then after she dies he marries Rosa
Ellen Coldfield
Judith - daughter of Ellen and Sutpen
Henry - son of Ellen and Sutpen
There is a large age gap between Rosa and Ellen.
Quentin Compson - the story is being told to him. His Granfather was a friend of Sutpen's.
The audiobook is interesting to listen to because the author uses somewhat of a southern accent/drawl. A little fact I saw about this book is that it boasts the longest sentence -- drumroll, please... 1300 words. Why would anyone make a story so difficult to understand?
I just wanted you to know that I started, and started again. My vocabulary is expanding, else I repeat looking up definitions in the dictionary.
Feb 16, 2009
Finished, I have no definite answers...
I read a few of the reviews of this book on Amazon. Someone said it was like reading math or poetry. This book for me was like reading poetry.
I wasn't sure of the ending either. Honestly, I'm still not sure if she chose the money or Densher? It was confusing, right? Tell me I'm not alone on this one. Of course I thought that because Kate had gone back to her family that she was showing some remorse for what she had done to Milly and wanted to be with Densher no matter what. I think Kate realizes at the end that she isn't in love with Densher anymore or perhaps never was? They had both changed so much- mostly because of the deception to other people. I agree that she gave up nothing while he gave up a lot- especially his integrity.
I thought Lord Mark was one of the only decent European characters in the story. He seemed to really love Milly and wanted the best for her. I wanted them to get together. I don't understand what Mrs. Lauder's interest in him was. Didn't he have his own money? Perhaps I am confused. Overall, I'm glad that I downloaded this one to read it, otherwise I would probably still be working on it.
I wasn't sure of the ending either. Honestly, I'm still not sure if she chose the money or Densher? It was confusing, right? Tell me I'm not alone on this one. Of course I thought that because Kate had gone back to her family that she was showing some remorse for what she had done to Milly and wanted to be with Densher no matter what. I think Kate realizes at the end that she isn't in love with Densher anymore or perhaps never was? They had both changed so much- mostly because of the deception to other people. I agree that she gave up nothing while he gave up a lot- especially his integrity.
I thought Lord Mark was one of the only decent European characters in the story. He seemed to really love Milly and wanted the best for her. I wanted them to get together. I don't understand what Mrs. Lauder's interest in him was. Didn't he have his own money? Perhaps I am confused. Overall, I'm glad that I downloaded this one to read it, otherwise I would probably still be working on it.
Feb 14, 2009
Finished at last ...questions
Ok, I see why you wanted to discuss the book. Why am I never satisfied with endings?
Did I understand that Kate just walked out at the end of the story? Is she taking the money and leaving Densher behind?
What was the significance at the end of the story when Kate went to see her sister and Father?
My first thoughts are that Mrs. Lauder or Kate were playing Lord Mark and trying to get to Millie's money through him. Perhaps if she had accepted him, he would have received Millie's money and then Kate would end up with him.
I do see that Densher did everything so that he could be with Kate but that she didn't give up anything for him. So much of their lives were wasted scheming about how to get money to survive. I can't see that she loved him, she loved her status.
Okay, let's hear what you think. Did I misunderstand?
Did I understand that Kate just walked out at the end of the story? Is she taking the money and leaving Densher behind?
What was the significance at the end of the story when Kate went to see her sister and Father?
My first thoughts are that Mrs. Lauder or Kate were playing Lord Mark and trying to get to Millie's money through him. Perhaps if she had accepted him, he would have received Millie's money and then Kate would end up with him.
I do see that Densher did everything so that he could be with Kate but that she didn't give up anything for him. So much of their lives were wasted scheming about how to get money to survive. I can't see that she loved him, she loved her status.
Okay, let's hear what you think. Did I misunderstand?
I don't know what to say...
I am quite interested in what you think of what happens in the end. I'm not sure what part you are at so let me know so we can discuss some of the developing plots linking all of the young people together. It seems as if everyone is deceiving everyone else.
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